“Fufilling my dreams to become a kidney donor”- with Dr. Michal Agus Fox

Dr. N. Fox: Welcome to today’s episode of Healthful Woman, a podcast designed to explore topics in women’s health at all stages of life. I’m your host, Dr. Nathan Fox, an OB-GYN and maternal fetal medicine specialist practicing in New York City. At Healthful Woman, I speak with leaders in the field to help you learn more about women’s health, pregnancy, and wellness. All right, Dr. Michal Agus Fox, welcome back to the podcast. Nice to see you again.

Dr. M. Fox: Thanks for having me. Love coming on.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. I guess for our listeners, the last time we were together was four years ago, but we’ve seen each other in the past four years a lot, I would say. It’s been… Four years ago, we were talking about COVID.

Dr. M. Fox: Yes.

Dr. N. Fox: A lot has happened since then. And today we’re talking about something really special and cool, which was your decision to donate one of your kidneys. So good stuff. So let’s talk about that. When did this start? When did this journey start?

Dr. M. Fox: So I would say maybe about 10 years ago, there was somebody in one of our daughter’s classes whose parent needed a kidney. And there was this campaign for everyone to kind of swap and see if they could match for him. And many of us did that at that time. We were put into a Mount Sinai hospital registry and I did not match. It turns out that this person’s wife actually matched for him. But it got me thinking about donating a kidney and how incredible that is to save someone’s life. I would say about nine years ago when my father passed away and others around me who were diagnosed with cancer, young children, different age groups, people my age, we couldn’t save them. And how awesome that would be if there was something that I can do to save someone’s life because there’s so many lives that we can’t save. And that was really my drive for always wanting to donate a kidney. So I would say my yearning to donate a kidney started about 10 years ago and finally came true 8 weeks ago, 10 weeks ago, whatever.

Dr. N. Fox: I’m trying to think of before 10 years ago, if we really knew anyone who had done this.

Dr. M. Fox: I’ve never even heard of it. I never heard about donating a kidney. I didn’t know. I didn’t know what that was. I didn’t know you can do that. I remember at our wedding in 1996, your uncle’s brother was on dialysis. And I remember my father driving out in the snowstorm. We got married in the blizzard of ’96 where everything was shut down for four days. I remember my father, he had a Suburban. I remember him driving through the snowstorm to get him his dialysis medication. And that was really the first time I’d even heard about dialysis or knew that there were people with kidney failures. I knew nothing about it.

Dr. N. Fox: Right. I mean, yeah, it wasn’t… I mean, I’m trying to think. I definitely knew there was a fellow in Englewood who got a liver transplant. And I know that one of my parents’ friends got a kidney transplant. And this person you’re talking about, my uncle’s brother, did get a kidney transplant. And I was in medicine, so I knew about it in that sense. But sort of socially, I guess I know a few people who received, but I didn’t really know anyone who donated. I don’t think it was, I mean, people would potentially do it if they were a match for someone specifically they knew. But this idea of just anonymous donation was really blood and bone marrow is what I’d heard of.

Dr. M. Fox: Right. So I had once matched for bone marrow. However, because I have Hashimoto’s, which is a thyroid disease, if you will, an autoimmune disorder, I was not allowed to donate my stem cells.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, it’s a bone marrow. That may not be true anymore. I don’t know.

Dr. M. Fox: But back then, 25 years ago, back then, they said I could not. I was ruled out. And so I just figured I was, you know, I do other things like this is just my fate. I’m not going to be someone who donates or, you know, whatever that is. And then I would say about during COVID, I heard a podcast from Aviva Breda on this podcast. Yeah, she’s great. She’s from Teaneck. She spoke about donating her kidney. And it was the first time I really had heard about renewal. And so I contacted Renewal right away and I swabbed in the mail because no nothing was open. There was no in-person swabbing in the beginning of COVID. And I told them at that time, it was probably four years ago, how interested I was in donating. And I hadn’t heard from them. So every year I would email Renewal and be like, “Remember me, Michal? I still want to donate.” They’re like, “We have your information. You can stop emailing me.” But every year, I remember it was February when I did it first. So for, you know, three years in a row, I would email them and they’d be like, we don’t want this psycho from Englewood, New Jersey, maybe pass over her.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, it was I don’t…

Dr. M. Fox: Comical.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, I mean, they I mean, basically, you know what they do at Renewal is they they have their own database. They swab people to get their DNA. And then if they find out about people who are looking, it’s predominantly kidneys, but livers too, but really mostly kidneys. If someone’s looking, they’ll see if they have a match in their database. So if they had a match, they would have called you. But, you know, persistence, you’re just trying to push it a little bit. Hey, you know, if you know…

Dr. M. Fox: It’s possible they forgot about me. So I just wanted to give them gentle reminders that I was still interested. And I would get these kind of you see these drives in your neighborhoods, I’d say, for like a two-year-old or in local neighborhoods, a two-year-old who needs a kidney. And it’s so inspiring to want to be that person to kind of save this two-year-old’s life. So every time I would read one of those or someone local who needed the kidney, it would just inspire me again to reach out to them and remind them that they have a willing and able participant to donate a kidney.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, I can see from the from an observer standpoint, like for me and for our kids, you know, over the course of those four years, you know, you would talk about it and say, “Hey, I emailed Renewal again.” And I don’t I don’t think any of us really consider that this would actually happen.

Dr. M. Fox: Yes, it seemed like something I was just going through the motions of. And because to me, it felt like a while until I matched, considering it was something I had been interested in for 10 years, it felt like it was not going to happen. So when I did get that phone call in January of this year of ’24, it was four days after my birthday. I had just turned 50 and I got a phone call from Renewal telling me that I was a match. I was literally jumping up and down. I was at work. I remember I think I was shouting at the phone. Oh, my God, this is my birthday dream come true. I turned 50. This is the most amazing birthday present. And the guy was a little surprised by my reaction. He thought I was, again, certifiable. And I said, “Okay, I’m going to sign up.” And he said to me, “You have to take 24 hours. You need to read the literature, go home, speak to your family and give it some thought and then get back to me.” And I was laughing because I know that my whole family knows that this was something that I had been very interested in doing for a very long time. So, of course, I get off the phone with him and I tell my family that I am going to be donating a kidney. There wasn’t much discussion about it. And 12 hours later, I called Renewal back and I said, “I am in.”

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, no, Renewal did not realize that you discussing with your family would have very little impact on your decision in any direction. You did mention it to us. It wasn’t a lie. It did come up in conversation. What did they tell you with the initial phone call? Did they tell you about the recipient at the time?

Dr. M. Fox: Right. So it’s very interesting. At the initial phone call, it’s almost like they’re trying to convince you not to donate the kidney. So they start by telling me about the person. They told me he’s a man. He’s about 71 or 72. And he said, “I’m going to stop right here. A lot of people don’t want to donate to somebody who’s in their 70s.” And and I said to him, I said, “That’s not going to stop me.” And he said, “Are you sure?” And then he went on and told me a little bit. This person had a harder life. He’s an immigrant. And just some things that might make or other people might say no and no judgment. I personally had gone into this not caring about how old or the circumstances of the individual. And granted, you have these romantic feelings of like visions of donating to someone who’s two years old, let’s say, or a young mother or young father or whatever it is that goes through your head when you’re saving someone’s life. For me, it was never about that. It was out of my hands. I was just thrilled to be able to prolong someone’s life. It never mattered to me who the person was or how old the person is or what their circumstances are in life. I was in no matter what.

Dr. N. Fox: It’s interesting. I mean, I think that, and this comes up a lot with the process that we’ll go through, you know, with Renewal. They’re an organization that’s there to connect living donors to just sort of like give up a kidney to a stranger. And so it’s amazing. But there’s obviously potential for backfire, right, that someone does it in three months later. They’re like, “Oh, crap, I regret it. You talked me into it. You were like sort of, you know, you’re selling me something,” or this or that. And so I think that, appropriately, they are so cautious not to do that. Like they are definitely not trying to push anyone into it, because the last thing they want is someone saying this organization, you know, twisted my arm to do it and like they’re terrible because that’s terrible. Like, that’s not what they want to do. And it’d be awful, obviously, if they couldn’t recruit anybody. And it was sort of the same thing medically. Like you have to be like top top fit to do this because if there’s a complication on the donor side, it shuts down the whole program. Like so they need to make sure you’re like the best possible candidate, like emotionally, psychologically, physically, like all that stuff before they’re going to allow you to do it. And I could see why they were a little bit, you know, skeptical. This crazy lady keeps calling them trying to give away a kidney.

Dr. M. Fox: Yes, we will discuss the psych part of this. I would say Renewal and the medical team that I went through definitely try to convince you out of it, not to convince you to donate. It’s a fascinating process. And I appreciated it. I think that is the correct way to go about this. But once I make up my mind, it’s very hard to convince me otherwise. I’ve always been like this.

Dr. N. Fox: True.

Dr. M. Fox: Very strong willed, if you will, in a great way. Everyone finds that very charming about me. So to me, this wasn’t I didn’t need that. But I do think others might need that. And I think it’s a good way to go about this because it’s called altruistic kidney donation. And it’s really not common, especially outside of this Renewal world that we’re in. It’s very uncommon to donate a kidney to somebody you don’t know.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, I mean, true. Absolutely. It’s so what was the process? What did you know? I mean, I know what it was, but let the… This for our listeners, you know, in terms of like, what what do you have to do logistically after you, you know, 12 hours later, call them back, say, “I’m in.”

Dr. M. Fox: So I call back I’m in and it happens to be that this person was going to be doing the surgery at Mount Sinai East. And so every hospital does it differently. And what I’ve learned later also is that there are different ways of taking out a kidney. So there are also different surgeries that can be done to take out the kidney. But when you are at the hospital that is chosen for you, you are at the whim of how they want to perform the surgery and how they want to do all of the medical appointments. So I would say I first had in January, at the end of January, I had rounds of virtual appointments with the social worker, with the nurse, with the coordinator. I had many virtual appointments first, and then they bring you in in person. I had two different days that I was scheduled for evaluations where they medically examine pretty much every part of your body. So, you know, you’re you’re meeting with a nephrologist or meeting with the kidney surgeon. You’re getting CAT scans.

Dr. N. Fox: You got a CAT scan, echocardiogram because you because you were over 50.

Dr. M. Fox: I was over 50. Did you know that when you’re over 50, you get echocardiograms? And they want you to get shingle shots, which I think… Things happen when you’re over 50. That’s all I have to say. You have to have had a mammogram. You have had to have…

Dr. N. Fox: Pap smear.

Dr. M. Fox: Pap smear and the colonoscopy.

Dr. N. Fox: Right.

Dr. M. Fox: This is all stuff that has to be done beforehand as well. And it’s not necessarily part of those two days, but it’s something that you are expected to have, which I’m all for.

Dr. N. Fox: Right. And they would schedule them if you didn’t have them already. But you had a mammogram, a pap smear and a colonoscopy. A lot of blood work.

Dr. M. Fox: A lot of blood work, a lot of urine work. And psych work and social work and nutritionist.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, it was two days.

Dr. M. Fox: It was two full days of very thorough workups of the body. And honestly, a lot of people are very hesitant to do that. I felt very lucky. I felt that the downside is they find something medically on me, let’s say. And to me, that’s a gift that I was lucky enough to be able to find something and be proactive about it. Let’s say, God forbid, something is bad that came out of the outcomes of all this workups, I felt that that would have been a blessing in disguise. And I see that all the time where people go through workups and they find things that they wouldn’t have otherwise found. For me, I was medically clear to everything, which I also felt very grateful for. I feel very grateful that I was healthy enough to be the one to be able to donate. That’s how I view this whole thing. I feel very grateful that, again, not necessarily psychologically, but certainly medically, I was able to be healthy enough to donate a kidney.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. And also for people who get rejected, it doesn’t mean they have some horrible illness, but sometimes they find something even minor that has no impact on your life. But they’re like, “Listen, we’re not going to do elective surgery on you or maybe you’re not the right person to take out a kidney.” So it’s not it’s not like all good or all bad. You can find something where literally, you’re fine, but you’re just not a good candidate. Because, again, they want to pick the best of the best because they they have no it’s not good for anybody. If there’s a complication from the kidney, nobody wants that, obviously.

Dr. M. Fox: Right. And even you, Naty, felt it was important to come with me to some of the doctor visits, to speak with the surgeon, and to feel reassured by the data and that this was safe enough for me to undergo.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, I mean, I was pretty confident you medically would be fine and all the testing, obviously, you know, proved that. But, yeah, I mean, normally I don’t go to your doctor visits with you, like whatever.

Dr. M. Fox: I thought it was weird.

Dr. N. Fox: I wanted to look at the surgeon, you know, in the eyes, you know, because, listen, just to see like who is this person? I know for me, I mean, this is Dr. Arfralakis, like whatever doubt or hesitation, whatever I may have had, I didn’t have a lot beforehand because it’s pretty common to be fine. But whatever I had, after meeting him, I was like, I’m in, this guy’s awesome.

Dr. M. Fox: He was amazing.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. I’m like, this is exactly the person I want taking care of you for this and doing this surgery. Like exactly. I couldn’t have picked a better person, skill, personality, the whole thing.

Dr. M. Fox: The minute we met him, Naty and I both fell in love. He stopped our consult to take a phone call from his mother.

Dr. N. Fox: A FaceTime.

Dr. M. Fox: A FaceTime phone call from his mother from Greece because she hadn’t yet spoken to him in a few days.

Dr. N. Fox: And he was like, “I have to take this.”

Dr. M. Fox: It was absolutely love at first sight. He was he was essential to the surgery for us. For me, I felt very reassured and very confident that I was in great hands, which is really important for a surgery like this.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. Now, you you hinted at this twice, but you you almost failed the the psychological evaluation, the psych work.

Dr. M. Fox: The psych work was tricky. A student in the room with the psychiatrist and they were asking me the same questions over and over and over again. It was as if they were not communicating with each other. And I have a very short fuse and the repetition of the questions was really getting on my nerves. I’m like, “Can you guys just listen to each other? Like, we’re asking the same questions.” But at the end, I did pass.

Dr. N. Fox: Not insane.

Dr. M. Fox: I don’t know what they wrote, but, you know, the questions… And I’m sure there’s a whole way that they do this. And I respect the system. But it felt particularly in the psych evaluation that they were trying to convince you not to do it. And really making me, I felt that they were making me feel crazy for wanting to be an altruistic donor. It was it felt as if they had never heard of that before.

Dr. N. Fox: Right. I mean, I think like you want to make sure someone’s not like, you know, living in an alternate reality or something like that. Or like, yeah, the radio told me to give away my kidney. Like, okay, you got to screen for that. And also, they’re probably just trying to see, like, who is a person who’s a setup for regret. But that’s so hard to I mean, it’s so hard to know.

Dr. M. Fox: It’s hard. So they go through all of your psych history and they they go through everything from high school, from young age. And it’s just a very interesting way of doing it. And a lot of the questions were fair. It was just more the repetition of it that was getting on my nerves. And the idea of like, I felt very judged of why would I donate to someone I don’t know? It felt like a very judgmental moment. And I do understand that a lot of the questions they ask you are are formulated. And I think there is some sort of, you know, there there are questions they ask. It was just it felt very intrusive. And, as a psychologist myself, when they start going into why I can’t sleep was very… I’m like, “I’m not here for my sleep issues. Can we just move on?” And they just, you know, they’re telling me about cognitive behavioral therapy. I’m like, I’m a psychologist. I know this. And it was just a lot of that back and forth where they weren’t really listening to me of what I do and what I come in and what knowledge I have. So they were just asking the questions without really being present in the room and participating in a conversation that was back and forth. It was just them reading off a sheet of paper. So that was a frustrating experience for me with the psychiatrist. But other than that, you know, I met so many awesome people.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. I mean, somebody loved that you said you love the cardiologist.

Dr. M. Fox: The cardiologist was amazing and very efficient, very practical. And I did get some tips of things that I could be doing and just in general, for my own health. I did not walk away from the psychiatrist with that experience.

Dr. N. Fox: I would say that amongst the circular Fox family, no one was surprised that medically you went through with flying colors and the psych eval got a little hairy. Only because we know that you’re like, they’re asking me all the same questions and the kids are like, “Oh, I know what’s happening next. We know where this is headed.”

Dr. M. Fox: Yes. I could work on myself.

Dr. N. Fox: It was funny. Other than obviously me, the kids, who did you decide to share this with before the surgery? And was there a thought process like I am going to share with these people, not these people?

Dr. M. Fox: So at first, so I get approved. And just before I answer your question, I then find out that there are more tests I have to do. So I didn’t even know that there’s actually…there was a two-week preop visit that I didn’t know about and a day before visit that I didn’t realize. So just there are a lot of testing and there’s also, there are a lot of factors that can make you not a candidate. Even after you pass the initial round, there are other things that keep going that you may not qualify. So I was kind of wary about telling people because I was waiting for that two week preop visit to really find out if I was a good match again. It was very strange. So at first, I just started telling, I tested it out with a bunch of friends at our Shabbos lunch table. There were a bunch of doctors and they all said, “Don’t do it.” All of that whole entire Shabbos lunch crew.

Dr. N. Fox: Well, that was interesting that it was like the I would say of all the people who told you don’t do it, probably 90% of them were doctors.

Dr. M. Fox: Yes.

Dr. N. Fox: And all the people who were like, “This is great,” none of them were doctors.

Dr. M. Fox: Correct. It was fascinating to me how…

Dr. N. Fox: I was the exception.

Dr. M. Fox: Yes. Maybe was the most supportive doctor. But it is fascinating to me how many doctors were not supportive of it. They felt why would you risk it? And even the doctors who kind of know the stats and know data, they were like, “Well, maybe down the road, someone in your family will need a kidney, even though that doesn’t really match the literature on this or the the actual statistics. They were the most conservative in their opinions about this.

Dr. N. Fox: Interestingly, though, one of the if you donate a kidney, like the people who do this are aware of that sort of fear that I won’t have a spare to give to one of my kids or my spouse or whatever it is. You, the donor and your first-degree relatives all actually go to the top of the kidney list. If, God forbid, one of us ever needed a kidney, because you donated, we go to the top of the list. So I’ve got like the kidney fast pass like you would get at, you know, at Disney World.

Dr. M. Fox: Correct. So that is something that not everyone knows. It’s a perk, if you will. But I was very surprised about the negativity around me surrounding donating a kidney. It actually shocked me. So I did eventually tell my family also. They were very supportive.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, I would say that was maybe more supportive than we thought that would be. You know, they were, yeah, they were like in.

Dr. M. Fox: Yes, they were all in. Everyone was very supportive.

Dr. N. Fox: Even your mom was on board.

Dr. M. Fox: My mom was very supportive. Cried and just kind of dropped it. And then it was Shabbos lunch and remind me what happened.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, it was just like you’re like, “Yeah, no, I’m doing it kidding.” And we thought your mom would, you know, collapse or something. And she was like, “Oh, that’s so nice of you.”

Dr. M. Fox: Yes.

Dr. N. Fox: It’s possible that internally, she’s like, “I’m going to collapse, but that’s probably not what I should do. So I’ll just say it’s nice.” No, but she was like, “I think that’s terrific. That’s so nice of you.”

Dr. M. Fox: So, you know, and then once I started hearing some positive around me, I started telling a few people I didn’t really tell that many people.

Dr. N. Fox: Told our closest friends.

Dr. M. Fox: Right. It wasn’t really something that I announced to the world. I had to clear it with work. Needless to say, they were very supportive of… I work at a Jewish school. They were very supportive of this. And that’s one of the reasons why I was able to donate the kidney is, you know, part of what they look at is also where where I work, my own lifestyle. And I knew that I would be in an environment in work where they would be very supportive.

Dr. N. Fox: Right. I mean, the program, when you donate a kidney, the intention is it doesn’t cost you a penny, meaning you don’t even use your own medical insurance. It’s all through the insurance of the recipient. There’s no you don’t pay any bills. You don’t get any bills. You know, they have, you know, if you needed child care, like they provide child care if you need it, like your parking is free. Like they really want to make sure that there’s no cost to you. And so they ask, like, you know, what are your benefits at work and this? And, you know, they’re they have things and, you know, you said, “I don’t really need that. Work’s giving me off.”

Dr. M. Fox: I knew that work would be fine. And in fact, they were. So I feel lucky also that not only was I healthy enough, but I was also in a work environment, you know, where I knew I would be able to easily donate and take off some time from work.

Dr. N. Fox: Right. And we sent the dogs away for a few days.

Dr. M. Fox: I did. That was the best part.

Dr. N. Fox: No dogs today. So, all right. So you’re coming up, you had the day before you had the visit. You had the surprise COVID test you had to do. Like, we’re still doing that? We’re still doing that. And the other thing, which is after all of this and all the clearance for you and you’re ready to go and you show up, the one thing that neither of us realizes, the recipient has to be cleared and ready to go because this person is sick. Right? And so not everyone who’s sick is ready for surgery. And it could be a day to day thing. So like they have to test. He has to get a COVID test the day before. He has to get blood work before. And he had to get blood work the day of like, like, which is we didn’t know that. They’re like, this could be canceled because of him, not even because of you.

Dr. M. Fox: Right. And in fact, the morning of, I think there were three of us that were scheduled to have surgery through all of different hospitals, different locations on April 2nd. And I saw through Instagram, through social media that actually the Florida case had been postponed or canceled that day. And only in the morning of did I realize how delicate it is to be able to really match, the details that go into matching even as close to the actual time of the surgery are… It’s really miraculous that it matches the way it does. And to have a surgery that can go on as as scheduled in the time that’s scheduled is is not as simple as it seems. It’s really complicated. The numbers have to match. The recipient has to be healthy enough. Then, you know, that recipient could be healthy on on Monday but on Tuesday, the numbers don’t work well for him. You know, and in my case, my surgery got delayed by maybe 45 minutes because they had to redo one of his tests.

Dr. N. Fox: His potassium level they had to double check.

Dr. M. Fox: And it’s really interesting because it’s very vulnerable. You know, I’m sitting on in the preop room. I’m all, you know, gowned up and I have all this stuff coming out of my arms. And, you know, and then to hear like, wait, this there’s a chance that this may not happen today is very humanizing. Very humanizing.

Dr. N. Fox: And you still don’t see the recipient. Like, he’s there in the hospital the same time, but they keep you separate.

Dr. M. Fox: So Renewal does that. We were all separate. I have no idea who the recipient was. It happens to be that I was, as I was getting ready in the morning, Renewal gave me a letter that my recipient wrote and he did sign his name. So, of course, Naty and I, you know, immediately Google him and find out, you know, he seems like he’s actually… He has beautiful art. He’s an artist.

Dr. N. Fox: We think it’s him.

Dr. M. Fox: Right. I think it’s him.

Dr. N. Fox: Unless it’s someone else with the same name.

Dr. M. Fox: It was actually only that morning. And again, I’m at the hospital, I’m in my gown. I’m waiting, you know, 10 minutes or half hour to go before I go into the preop room. And I read this beautiful note that he wrote to me. I’ll read it to you. And he’s he’s not from America. So his English is not so clear. But I’m going to read it to you right now.

Dr. N. Fox: And Renewal, what they send, there’s a coordinator that sort of from Renewal that sort of follows you through the process. You know, he comes to your medical visit to you and he brings food for you, for me, he’s such a nice guy. He came the day the surgery. And so he’s there like to be your like concierge sort of just to help. Plus such a nice guy, you know?

Dr. M. Fox: Such a nice guy. Shout out to Sesame and Bar Park, which I’ve never heard about, which makes the most amazing tuna fish wraps. Renewal was great. And I’ll get into that. But they they’re they meet you every step of the way. They are such an amazing resource. And they give you little, you know, tips. And then the two nights before I have a woman from Renewal calling me because, you know, it’s very religious. It’s a very Orthodox Jewish organization. And they want to see if as a woman going to surgery, if I have any questions from a woman’s perspective that I might not feel comfortable asking a man. And so it’s really a beautiful organization that takes care of you every step of the way.

I will read the letter. “Dear donor,” that was me. “I’m writing to you overwhelming gratitude, heartfelt appreciation for the incredible gift you have given to me. World can’t express the depth of my gratitude for your generosity and kindness. Your decision to donate a part of yourself to someone in need is nothing short of heroic. You have shown me the true meaning of compassion, empathy and humanity. Once again, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. You will always hold a special place in my heart, and I will forever be grateful for your extraordinary act of kindness with deepest gratitude.”

Dr. N. Fox: It was such a pep talk the morning of to get that. It was unbelievable.

Dr. M. Fox: I don’t think I had internalized exactly what I had been doing. You know, it was like all about me, which is so weird because I wasn’t doing any of this to be about me. But all of a sudden, you’re in this room and I get this letter. And and it was just…it really hit me that, wow, I am so lucky that I have this opportunity to save this person’s life. And it just it became very real and very emotional for me to read that and to see that it’s attached to a human and to really be able to have impact and save someone so directly like this was an incredible feeling for me.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. I mean, Renewal should just like fake those letters and give to someone before, because it was it was really, I mean, we read that. We’re like, wow, this is it’s really very cool. So, yeah. Well, how did it go with the surgery day of?

Dr. M. Fox: So I had fantastic…

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, Melka pulled some strings. Got us a friend.

Dr. M. Fox: Yeah, I was, you know, given the VIP treatment.

Dr. N. Fox: It was just a coincidence that you were at Sinai, which is where I work. Like I was so comfortable. I knew a lot of the people, knew the operating room. Again, didn’t do it there because I’m at Sinai. It just it just worked out that way. And so that was nice for me. I felt a lot more comfortable being in the building I know, which is pretty cool.

Dr. M. Fox: Right. So, you know, so I’m in this preop room and I’m ready to go. And they wheel me into the operating room. And I believe that in the next operating room over, that’s where the recipient was or will be in, you know, five minutes from when I got wheeled in. And within three minutes, I am sleeping. It’s the best part. And then…

Dr. N. Fox: Solved those sleep problems.

Dr. M. Fox: Oh, my gosh. It was amazing. I was so well-rested. And then they wake me up a few hours later. And I said to them, “Why are you waking me up? I’m having the best dream.” And that’s it. And then I wake up and post-op and there’s some waiting time. And then they wheeled me up to the recovery room. Renewal sets you up in a private room.

Dr. N. Fox: The donors get private rooms. Yeah.

Dr. M. Fox: And I was still on a lot of amazing pain medication. So I was giddy and I didn’t feel so much pain right away. I had stayed one night in the hospital and my goal was to get out of the hospital. I personally don’t feel that I can recover in a hospital. Hospitals are very uncomfortable for me. So I couldn’t wait to get out of there. I made that very clear to any doctor, nurse, PA, technician, anyone that walked into my room knew I wanted to get out of there. And so I walked. I left a day later.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, I mean, the the day of, some of the kids visited, it was a crazy rainstorm. They got a storm, brought some brought brought some Krispy Kreme.

Dr. M. Fox: Which I wasn’t allowed to eat.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, like I… That was the night I ended up. I delivered [inaudible 00:35:06].

Dr. M. Fox: Why don’t you tell us what you did after my surgery?

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, this is great. So so we figure, all right, here’s the plan. Like and I took off the day that we go is a Tuesday, right?

Dr. M. Fox: Yes.

Dr. N. Fox: Right. So the Tuesday said I’m going to take off Tuesday. I’m gonna take off Wednesday and probably, you know, you’ll be home. We’ll figure out Thursday. So Tuesday, take off. We’re with you. And while this surgery is going on, I’m getting texted from our niece, who is also my patient, that she’s probably in early labor. And and I’m supposed to deliver this kid. And I’m thinking, all right, well, I could bring you into Mount Sinai East where I still have privileges and maybe deliver you while I’m there with you and go back and forth. And I’m calling the labor floor there this said, or if it’s later, I can maybe send her to West. So ultimately, what ended up happening is I’m with you all day. At night in the evening, I go home to like shower and change. I send her to West. I go to West, deliver her overnight. Then I come back to East to you. Right? And like, I guess five or six in the morning, fall asleep on a chair next to you. And then we go home together later in the day. Beautiful, beautiful baby boy.

Dr. M. Fox: Nate, I think, maybe got less sleep than I did that night.

Dr. N. Fox: They come in there, they come in rounding in the morning and you’re like, “I’m feeling good. I’m all right.” They’re like, “What the hell’s wrong with your husband? He looks a wreck, like sleeping on a chair,” I haven’t shaved.

Dr. M. Fox: I mean, the amount of times that Naty does deliveries after I send him all the time to do deliveries. If I recall…

Dr. N. Fox: When Mia was born.

Dr. M. Fox: Naty was on call. And at those times, you know, our call was valuable because it meant that he was never home when he was on call. And I had just delivered Mia.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah, it was Mia.

Dr. M. Fox: It was Mia. Yeah. And he got called in to do a delivery. And I was like, “You got to go take that.” He’s like, “What are you talking about?” I’m like, well, this just means like I’m in the hospital. Nothing’s going on.

Dr. N. Fox: The baby’s already born. Yeah.

Dr. M. Fox: The baby’s born. Our other kids are being watched by babysitters. You go deliver that baby. And everyone thought I was out of my mind. But I knew that it would just free up an extra day of him not having to take a call. It was actually very selfish because I knew I would need his help, you know, when I got out of the hospital. And so he went and delivered. He went in with his own hospital tag to deliver a baby that… It was very cute, actually.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. Every time you’re in the hospital, I’m delivering a baby. But that time it was also, well, these are both different hospitals. I mean, this was Sinai East, Sinai West. That was Sinai, Beth Israel, Fasting. All right. So you, thank God everything went well. Dr. Arbolakis came in and said, “Get out of here, go home.” He’s like, “You can leave. It’s all good.” So number one, we’ll just talk about what was like the physical recovery afterwards. You know, worse than expected, better than expected. What would you think?

Dr. M. Fox: So personally, for me, I was in a lot of pain. They had warned me I would be in a lot of pain, but I chose not to believe that. I thought even though they’re saying I would be in a lot of pain, I would not be in a lot of pain.

Dr. N. Fox: Turns out they were right.

Dr. M. Fox: Turns out they were very right. So there was a lot of pain and they also take away the narcotics. Whatever. So, you know, I had to like survive on Tylenol, which was awful. But eventually I did. I started walking right away, I would say within three to four days of my surgery I was walking. I started at two miles and then upped it to four miles every day. And I think that was a key to my recovery. It was very painful. Maybe not for everyone it’s as painful. For me it was, but it does get better.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. My impression was I thought it was a little bit harder and longer than even I expected.

Dr. M. Fox: Yes.

Dr. N. Fox: And it was something within normal. But I think we had also heard a few people who recovered faster, but they were probably faster than average. It ends up being similar to a C-section is just sort of my like because I see a lot of those.

Dr. M. Fox: I don’t remember my C-section.

Dr. N. Fox: But you definitely recovered, obviously.

Dr. M. Fox: I recovered, right? I mean, the surgery was April 2nd. Today is June 26th. And I feel great. I’m back to exercising. I’m back to lifting weights. I’m back to, you know, to pre-surgery activities.

Dr. N. Fox: Now, after you did it, that’s when everyone found out, basically. Right? So that’s whoever you didn’t tell before found out, you know, various. What was the response that you got just generally from people? No one’s going to be negative then, obviously.

Dr. M. Fox: No. So that’s when people kind of come out of different places and, you know, or like a family member of mine was saved by this and what you did was so amazing. You know, that’s when you kind of hear these stories I didn’t necessarily know of, of how much kidney donations have impacted people around me that I didn’t even realize. People really think it’s an unbelievable thing. For me, it was just something I’ve always wanted to do. So I’m not trying to downplay it. I would do it again in a second. But I didn’t necessarily think it was such a big deal because it was something that I had known I wanted to do for 10 years. But when people around me had found out, for them, it was a much bigger deal and people were very excited. I had a lot of visitors and people wanting to take care and a lot of people offering to help and it was an amazing community around me that showed up and really took care of me in the best possible way.

Dr. N. Fox: I mean, it was people reached out who we didn’t know who themselves had donated kidneys that we didn’t know about. Or again, like you said, someone they knew had received a kidney. And there’s like this whole community. And so you’re on the WhatsApp chat now for Renewal.

Dr. M. Fox: So I’m on the woman’s WhatsApp chat for Renewal, which is the cutest group. I’m getting invited to VORTS every day in Muncie, Williamsburg, Lakewood. Everyone’s invited to everyone’s engagement parties. It’s it’s the most beautiful community and very supportive and very supportive of each other. It’s a really, really beautiful organization and something to be part of. I’m very happy to help Renewal in any way.

Dr. N. Fox: Yeah. When I saw… You mentioned Aviva Breda before, her doing her kidney. I saw her husband maybe a week or two after you donated, I mean, right after you donated your kidney and, or maybe it was right before I think it was right after and I told him and he goes, “It’ll change her life.” Like that’s what he has seen in his own family, that the donor gets so much out of it, not just the recipients.

Dr. M. Fox: Right. So for me, it’s all about what I got out of it. There’s no question. I feel like my journey is really only beginning with it. Again, for me, it’s kind of gave me this connection to God, which I hadn’t necessarily felt in a long time. Just how lucky I am that I was able to donate is really my feelings on this. I would do it again. I would encourage anyone to do it if they can. Not everyone can. If you have young kids at home, I think that’s complicated. I think there’s certain life situations that you’re in that are complicated, it may not be the right time for you. But I have zero regrets and I think it’s really one of the most amazing, powerful experiences to be able to do. But with that being said, people do good things all the time that I couldn’t do. So I have a brother and sister-in-law in Ra’anana who pre-October 7th were amazing in what and how they help people every day and certainly post-October 7th and how they help their Israeli community in ways that I could never do. So I think that it’s the message for me, for people is to give back in ways that they can and that are comfortable for them. It doesn’t have to be donating a kidney. It could be just getting out of the comfort zone of something that you do and and do good for others. I think there’s nothing more powerful in life than being able to give of yourself to somebody else.

Dr. N. Fox: Normally, this is where I would end the podcast because that’s the perfect ending. But we can’t end the podcast without telling your story when you spoke about this at high school. Right? So they asked at your high school to speak to the kids about like because they’re like, this is a great role model, is a great example. Like the kids should know about this. You tell the story and you want to tell it? So this is like the ongoing story in our family. So one of one of the kids, you know, asking questions and one of the kids is basically trying to inquire, like, how are you doing with your recovery? Because it’s just you went to work like two weeks later, like, you know, early. I worked very, yeah. So they want to know, like, how are you recovering? How do you feel? And so one of the kids like, you know, raise hand, you know, “Dr. Fox, how do you feel?” And Michal says, “Well, some people think of me as a hero, but I don’t know if I feel that way about myself really. I haven’t really thought about that.” And it was like the funniest thing. They’re like, “No, I meant like, are you in pain?” So the whole time, like for weeks everyone around the house is like, “You know, hero is just a word. It’s more of a feeling.”

Dr. M. Fox: And that is not even an exaggerated story. And then a second great story was when Naty and I went to some fancy luncheon organization for…

Dr. N. Fox: Saving Mothers.

Dr. M. Fox: Saving Mothers and the very different crowd than anything I’ve ever been at and very wealthy crowd of people around us. And then someone asks me, “Are you a donor?”

Dr. N. Fox: No, no, we sat with the woman across from us, we said, you know, “Why you here? It’s like, what’s your what’s your connection?” And she goes, “I’m a donor.” And so Michal’s like, “A kidney donor?” She’s like, “No, money.”

Dr. M. Fox: When I think of donor, I think of kidneys.

Dr. N. Fox: No, I give cash. I’ve got all my organs. I’m giving money.

Dr. M. Fox: My my perspective of things has changed. So, yeah, I mean, it’s I really feel back to what I was before. But I feel very honored and very honored that I was able to donate.

Dr. N. Fox: Well, I think you’re a hero and everyone around you does. It’s an awesome thing you did. And it’s really, really cool. And I think it is a great example for our kids. I think it’s a great example for our community, the kids you work with at school and now all our listeners. So great stuff. Thanks for coming to talk about it.

Dr. M. Fox: Thanks for having me.

Dr. N. Fox: Thank you for listening to the Healthful Woman podcast. To learn more about our podcast, please visit our website at www.healthfulwoman.com. That’s healthfulwoman.com. If you have any questions about this podcast or any other topic you would like us to address, please feel free to email us at hw@healthfulwoman.com. Have a great day.

The information discussed in Healthful Woman is intended for educational uses only. It does not replace medical care from your physician. Healthful Woman is meant to expand your knowledge of women’s health and does not replace ongoing care from your regular physician or gynecologist. We encourage you to speak with your doctor about specific diagnoses and treatment options for an effective treatment plan.