Dr. Fox: Welcome to today’s episode of “Healthful Woman,” a podcast designed to explore topics in women’s health at all stages of life. I’m your host, Dr. Nathan Fox, an OB/GYN and maternal-fetal medicine specialist practicing in New York City. At “Healthful Woman,” I speak with leaders in the field to help you learn more about women’s health, pregnancy, and wellness.
All right, Chani, welcome back to the podcast. Last week for our listeners and one minute ago for us. We were just talking about, in general, how you got into nursing, how you got to midwifery, what it’s like midwifery in Israel, and what your job is like, and your family and your home life and your shifts and all that. And I wanted this week to switch gears and talk about how all of this changed October 7th of ’23, when obviously… I assume most of our listeners know, there’s a horrible tragedy in Israel. A terrorist attack. Many, many people killed, kidnapped, still hostages. How did that affect you..? I want to just start simply professionally and then we could talk about, sort of, personally and in your community. So, how did that day impact you professionally?
Chani: Actually I wasn’t working on October 7th. It was a Saturday. It was a Shabbat. It was a holiday. Happened to not be working. I think I must have worked Monday after that because I also was home that Sunday, which ended up being a very good thing for family and kids. But you go back to work, the unit is in shock. I mean, the country is in shock. You’re sort of numb. Your ears are tuned to the news all the time. We used to have the news… We have computers at every nurse’s, doctor’s station, and they were always just regular computers for charting. And one of them was always open to a news station at all times. The staff room was always the news.
Everyone that I work with is somehow connected to either a soldier that was called up or to somebody whose family member was affected or killed. It’s almost like you’re distracted. And then, in a way, you’re at work, so that’s helpful because you’re working and you have to do what you have to do. In a way, it sort of takes your mind off of it, but it’s always there. And everyone’s experiencing it, and the patients are experiencing it, and the women, and the men. And you have husbands coming in literally in uniform and with their machine guns. And you have family members who are coming in because the husbands aren’t there. And everyone is just in a state of shock and sadness, almost like no one knew what to do with themselves.
So, it was a painful time all around. You could say that the delivery room was a happy place, but there was a level of sadness there. Not to mention—I’m just going to add this also—there were sirens going off all the time because there was rocket fire, which living in America, growing up in America, you’re like, “Rocket fire? What is that? What’s a rocket?” And here, missiles are flying toward the center of Israel. And so when that happens, a siren goes off in the hospital, and your phone is lighting up and going off. And there’s a loudspeaker saying, “Everybody go to the safe area.” And a safe area…what’s a safe area? It’s a stairwell. It happens to be all the delivery rooms are safe rooms. There’s no windows in them, and they’re built of concrete, so they’re considered safe rooms so we didn’t have to move those women. But women in triage, women in the lobby, and you’re herding people. You’re herding all these waddling pregnant women toward the stairwell and your heart pounds. And it doesn’t matter how many times you hear it. It’s a scary sound. So, it was definitely a tense time.
Dr. Fox: Yeah, I mean, for our listeners who aren’t aware of what it’s like in Israel, I was trying to explain to someone. I said, “There is nobody… There’s no Israeli in that country who didn’t know someone who either was kidnapped or was killed. And if they didn’t know them directly, they knew their family member.” Everyone knew somebody because it’s not that big a country, and so many people were either killed or kidnapped. And every single family in Israel, 100%, has people in them who are serving in the military, either actively or get called up in reserves. So, there’s nobody who’s just, sort of, walking around blissfully unaware or unaffected by what’s happening. It’s literally every single person, in addition to, sort of, dealing with their day-to-day, thinking in the back of my mind, *Oh, my God, this happened to this person I know or my family, my friend, my cousin, my friend’s cousin, my cousin’s friend,” whatever it is, “and I have… My kid’s in the army. My brother’s in the army. My sister’s in the army.” It’s all happening at that time as well. So, people must also be so distracted with their own personal lives. I mean, you’ve got kids, right?
Chani: Yes.
Dr. Fox: And they’re in the army. And so how do you work and deal with that at the same time?
Chani: It was hard. You’re on your phone so much, it’s ridiculous because you’re, sort of, waiting for a message from one of the kids. My son is in reserves. So, he went in a day or two after. And my son-in-law went in on Sunday. He was down on the border of Gaza and eventually went into Gaza. My son is in a different unit, and they were in the Arab villages. You don’t hear from them. They don’t have their phones. You’re not allowed to have contact with them on their end. So, it’s very distracting. You’re up at night. You don’t leave your phone is basically… I mean, I’m a religious Orthodox Jew, and I keep Shabbat. Every single person at the synagogue was walking around with their phones. It all of a sudden became okay to hear a phone ring on Shabbat. And it was okay for that person to leave the synagogue because they needed to talk to their son because their son was finally calling for the first time in two weeks. It was a completely different.
I was talking to my daughter about this. I think I wrote something down about the day after, and it was about her and her husband and them saying goodbye. And when we dropped him off on his base and she says, “Mommy, I don’t remember that.” It was literally like… It’s literally so, so hard to have lived through it, that I think sometimes we just, sort of, block out parts of the hardest memories. And, yeah, there’s no words to say other than it was hard. It was painful. It was nauseating. You’re afraid to open the news because you’re going to see that some other soldier was killed or that they found…another kidnapped person was now found. They found their body. They were kidnapped. They were killed. And to read more and more stories, it was a horrific, unimaginable time.
Dr. Fox: The only comparable time that I can think of in my lifetime, at least in this country, was pretty much September 11th when that happened and the towers.
Chani: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Fox: And I remember because we were… So, I was at the time an intern. It was actually I think probably about 10 days after I passed out at my first delivery. Because it’s the same year, I was an intern. And I remember I was just… We were on the postpartum floors. And I think I was even doing a circumcision or something. And then you heard what happened and then it was just crazy. I mean, all hell broke loose in the hospital. They’re trying to… Because this is not something that we’re used to. I mean, in Israel, they’re much more, sort of, prepped for war, right? I mean, just people are… Again, for nothing like that, but it’s on the mindset always. But not in New York City. And, sort of, like, what do you do? Let’s start discharging people to make room for all the injured folks. And it was the most… And same thing. Everyone was on their phones, and you couldn’t travel. And it was such a horrible… but it’s seared into your memory, certain parts, and other parts I have no recollection of that because it’s so intense. But obviously, it’s very different because not as many… Since New York and America are such a bigger country, even though so many people were killed, most people didn’t know anyone who was killed in the same way. I mean, you don’t compare tragedies because they’re both awful, obviously. But I just remember that, sort of, mindset in the hospital.
Did things shift in terms of your policies, procedures, protocols, how you did things? Did people stay longer? Did they stay shorter? Did you have to change anything because of what was going on?
Chani: You know, it’s actually funny. The one thing that I can… So, obviously, there’s an emergency protocol in terms of shifts. However, they never implemented that. That was actually implemented more during corona than now. But actually, hospitals in the south, I think, towards the border there, they couldn’t leave the hospital. So, the nurses who were supposed to come in and the staff who were supposed to come in couldn’t get in. And the staff who were supposed to leave couldn’t leave.
But no, we didn’t do that. But one thing that did change was, because it was such a traumatic time, the anesthesiologist, when they were coming to do the epidural, it was really midwife, mom, and anesthesiologist. And they all started allowing the dad to stay or, I should say, somebody to stay, a family member to stay with the mom because everybody was just so on edge and so traumatized. And it was, sort of, like, “Okay, one thing we can do to calm everybody down is let somebody else be there during the time of the epidural,” which so many women have… It’s a hard time for them. Anyways it’s scary for them. So, that’s the one change that I think… I mean, it’s funny that you asked that, but that is really the one thing that changed.
Dr. Fox: Has it remained?
Chani: Yeah, it’s remained. I love it. It’s great. And obviously, who’s used to doing a delivery with machine guns in the room and in the place in the corner or dad’s passed out in the chair because they’re so tired? But yeah, no, in terms of policy, I think that’s probably the one thing that’s changed.
Dr. Fox: And what about in your… Just again, for our listeners, to get a flavor, not at work but just in your community just like in the streets, in the supermarket, and in the synagogue when you’re talking to friends, what was it like at that time, if you could describe it?
Chani: Well, first of all, the day of, October 7th, just going back to that day, all of a sudden, you’re hearing rumors and news, and you’re running around to different neighbors’ houses trying to get… On one hand, you’re running around to people’s houses, and on the other hand, you’re, sort of, almost afraid to leave your house because we didn’t know how far Hamas was going to get into the country at that time. Things were still out of control, and they were still all around the South. So, nobody even knew. They were saying, “Be in your house, lock your doors.” Nobody knew what to expect. And outside… And this is Shabbat. This is the Sabbath. And it’s plenty of Jews who don’t drive on the Sabbath here. And their kids are all throwing on their uniforms and getting in cars and driving to the bases. That day, they’re getting called. And at that point, everybody starts turning on their phones. And I didn’t but any of the soldiers and my kids did.
And in Jerusalem, where I had… Two of my kids were in Jerusalem, my two married children, and they had siren after siren after siren. And nobody knows really what’s going on. And it was a hard time. I remember Sunday, the day after, I went to the grocery store. My son-in-law is from Australia, and his parents happened to be here during that time. So, I thought like, “I’ll be nice. Their son has just been dropped off at an army base down in the southern border. I’m going to invite them for dinner.” So, we went to go… I don’t know what I was thinking, because nobody could function. I went to the grocery store with my girls, and all of a sudden, I just started crying. We just started crying. We’re standing in the grocery store, and we just started crying. And my other daughter’s friend had been killed on the 7th. I just hugged her. And normally, you don’t just start crying in the middle of a grocery store. If you do, people are going to look at you weird. And nobody looked at us weird because everybody was walking around at any minute ready to burst into tears. I was at a pharmacy, and the cashier, she was talking to her son before I got to the counter. And then I got there, and I listened to her, and she’s saying to him, “Well, what can I send you? Do you need anything? Do you need this? Do you need that?” And then she hung up the phone, and then she started crying. And then I started crying. And it’s just like we’re all in the same place of our children are out there. We don’t know what’s going to be with them. We don’t know what’s going to be with the country. And so, there’s almost like no happiness. You felt like everything was sad. Everything was down. And yeah, it was hard. And all we did was talk about the war. There was no other conversation.
Dr. Fox: I mean, what else could you talk about? I mean, it’s really…
Chani: As it is, we’re still talking about it a lot.
Dr. Fox: No, I mean, listen, it hasn’t ended, right? I mean, whatever it is, until everybody’s home, it hasn’t ended. And that’s just the reality of it. And it’s just…
Chani: Right.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. And so I wanted you to get a chance to talk about what you guys are doing in Israel as a group of midwives. Tell us about this program, By Your Side, just so we get a sense of it. We could talk about that.
Chani: So, it’s by the midwife organization, the national midwife organization. And they set up this program to… They realized that there was a need for women who were either widowed through the war or whose husbands were injured, either emotionally or physically. And they realized that there was a need for, I guess, more sensitive and intense care. And so they partnered midwives, volunteers, two to three midwives, with each of these women. It started out with just a handful. I think, if I’m not mistaken, we might have had over 50 women at this point. I might be wrong. It might be closer to 40. And I didn’t even hear about it until one of my coworkers, I heard that she was doing it. And I sort of was like, wow, that’s amazing that she’s doing that. She’s accompanying this woman, and she’s a widow. And she’s going to be with her through the pregnancy, and then she’s going to come in for the delivery and be there for her. And I thought that was really a wonderful way to give and serve in our own way, since I’m not a soldier.
And then they posted on the WhatsApp group, and they said there’s a need for another midwife at Tel HaShomer. This one woman wanted to deliver at Tel HaShomer, and we need a midwife from Tel HaShomer. This woman actually lives a little bit far from me, and so they were trying to get two midwives who lived closer to her, and then myself to be at Tel HaShomer to be the delivering midwife. And I said, “You know what? I’m going to do it.” And they said, “Okay, it’s a complicated situation, and it’s a little bit far but that’ll be great.” And so I volunteered to do that.
Dr. Fox: And so just explain. So, you or the midwives in this program, you go to them, what, to every prenatal visit? Do you do it at home? Exactly what does it entail on this program?
Chani: Right. So, basically, they set you up with these women. I guess they’re probably all around late 20 weeks—27 weeks or so, 25, 27, 28 weeks. And then you’re supposed to set up a WhatsApp group with them. And then you go meet with the women every two weeks to one week, depending on the need. We did it every… And you don’t have to go to the prenatal visits, but you do physically go and meet with this woman. So, you have those meetings. And then you’re available by WhatsApp all the time. So, if our patient wasn’t feeling well or, I don’t know, itchiness, or swollen, or throwing up, or whatever it was, she could text us, A, to ask us medically what she should do, and B, just to have somebody there and say, “Oh, you know what, that’s okay. That’s horrible, but maybe try this med,” or, “Maybe you need to have your blood pressure checked.” They also actually gave all of us a kit so that we can measure blood pressure and, I think, even urine tests and all that like the stick. Anyway, so they did enable us to have that kind of minor care, that if we thought that they needed to be sent to the doctor or the hospital, then we could do that.
Dr. Fox: And then you would come in for their delivery.
Chani: Then the delivery, so then they get to call and… Yeah, and then you’re there for the delivery and you’re there the whole time. Technically, I guess sometimes it works out that there’s two midwives from the same hospital with the woman. But it happened to be that I was the only one at Tel HaShomer, so I was the delivery midwife. So, I was there the whole… All three of us were there the whole time. And, yeah, we basically come in and meet her in triage, and stay until she gets to the unit.
Dr. Fox: Wow. So, I mean, basically, from when you get connected, you’re on call 24/7 for her essentially.
Chani: Basically. Yeah. Yeah, technically. She never bothered us in the middle of the night but, yes, technically, essentially, you’re there. You’re available for her all the time, and it gives her a tremendous feeling of support. And it gives all these women a feeling of continuity, a feeling of support, a feeling of somebody who’s knowledgeable and professional and can care for them and somebody who’s not in their circle of family members, because that’s a whole nother complicated situation with these women. So, whatever it is, there’s a lot of emotional issues going on, whatever direction it’s coming from. And so we’re, sort of, a neutral, professional person so the woman can connect to us. So, I think it works really well for that reason.
Dr. Fox: And so what was that like for you?
Chani: First of all, I loved it. I loved being able to do something for somebody who has been so affected by the war. And I loved being able to be there for this person. It’s a very powerful feeling, and it’s a very good feeling. And it opened up my world a little bit to something that I didn’t… because, wait a minute, I know nothing. As much as I’m affected by this war and as much as I’m emotionally feeling so much from this war, on the other hand, I know nothing. And so then you could just, sort of, give your most to that person. And then the delivery, it was very emotional. It wasn’t what I expected.
It’s almost you think that every delivery is a victory in a way. Like, here we are. We’ve been attacked, we have our enemies on our borders, and we’re still going forward. And we’re striving for continuity, which is what we’re good at. We’re very good at having babies. So, you, sort of, think, this is victory. And that’s what I thought before this particular delivery. I thought, wow, it’s going to be so amazing and so victorious, and I’m just going to feel so good. And then it came to the delivery, and it was hard. It brought up so many emotions for everybody. And it was painful. I mean, you knew it was going to be painful, but you don’t realize the depth of the pain that a woman who’s going through birth and life is going to feel death so strongly and so deeply.
And there’s such a huge part missing. And I was there basically… It was a very long process of a couple triage visits, and then finally the triage visit that she stayed and then the delivery. And it was a long process. And I was probably in the hospital for over 24 hours. And obviously, I was tired and emotionally drained. And I got in my car, and I started sobbing like sobbing. And I’m going to be very personal here. I started talking out loud to myself. And I said, “It’s not a victory.” I said, “This isn’t a victory, because what’s victory?” Like, victory, you have something good and positive. And yes, the baby is good and positive. And the baby is beautiful and wonderful, and the baby is bringing light into this world. But on the other hand, there’s this huge hole. And that hole is never, ever going to be filled. Never. It’s an empty hole. And so you build around it, and you build forward, but that hole is there.
And I remember just thinking to myself, “I was wrong.” I was so wrong with what I saw. And it was very eye-opening for me. It was very painful. It took me a week to stop crying. And on the other hand, of course, there’s this beautiful baby, and I got to see the mother with the baby. It happens to be I worked every day that she was in the hospital still. And so I got to see her every day. So, that was really nice. But on the other hand, it was very painful.
And actually it happened to be that we had a meeting… The midwife organization has these Zoom sessions for all the midwives participating to talk about what we’re going through and to give us tools and everything like that of how to deal with what we’re dealing with in a very general sense. And it happened to be that that week, they said, “And you know, there’s this therapist who, if anybody wants to talk to her, she is offering her services to talk to any midwife who might need it.” And I said, “Oh, my God, I need this.”
And so I texted her, and we set up a Zoom session. And that was actually very helpful. She was wonderful, and I was able to just talk to her because nobody could understand, nobody except for the two other midwives who I was with could understand what we went through. And we ourselves actually set up a group, and they called it “Chani’s Group” because I was the delivery midwife. So, I think that they felt like I was the most intensely physically involved, even though they were there supporting all of us the whole time. But they felt that I had the brunt of the emotional stress. And so we were in touch a lot, the three of us, but also this women. And that was really able to… As much as I told my kids and told Moshe, for some reason, it was very helpful to tell this professional. And that was probably the start of my stopping crying.
Dr. Fox: Listen, I mean, we’re not meant to process those kinds of emotions at the same time. I mean, this is not something that we experience ever, this idea of the most intense expression of life at the same time as the most intense expression of death. I mean, it’s just impossible to process that easily. We’re not meant to. I mean, thank God we’re not meant to, right? I mean, this is not how humans typically experience this. Is the program something that, kind of, ends after birth or are you guys in touch afterward? How does that work?
Chani: So, we are in touch. We’re supposed to technically be there for the six-week postpartum period. So, we did a visit, just a visit. Not a medical visit, a fun visit to the baby. And that was nice but also still very emotional. Everybody was, sort of, just recovering, I should say. But on the other hand, you do have this adorable little baby and we all got to hold the baby. And actually subsequently I have been back to visit the mom, but that’s, sort of, on my own—not through the program. But the program is technically through six weeks. And, again, questions on WhatsApp and, “Is this normal and is that normal?” Helping with nursing, developmental questions, and all that sort of… And we’re all, sort of, still in touch with her, so that’s really nice. I think it would be hard to not be in touch with her. I do text her here and there, so technically, though, it’s just up to six weeks. And then you can take another patient if you like. I know that actually many of us midwives have taken on two. I have a friend who did three women since the beginning of all this. I’m working now with the second woman now. So, she has not delivered yet.
But, yeah, it’s a lot and it’s also… We actually had a meeting. They brought us all together for a little conference. And it was really nice to see all of us together in one room and to hear some of the other midwives’ stories. One of the midwives’ sons was killed on the 7th of October, a soldier. And she is delivering babies now of women who are also going through this. It was so powerful to hear her speak, and to hear her story, and to see all these other women who everybody has their own story and everybody has what they can bring to it. So, it’s a very, very powerful program. Unfortunately, it’s not being closed down yet.
Dr. Fox: Wow. Wow. Chani, that’s awesome. It’s awesome that you’re doing it. It’s horrible that you need to do it, obviously. But like you said, what are you going to do? I mean, this is your home. This is your community. This is your people. And you’re doing whatever you can. I mean, God bless you. It’s amazing. You know that Michal and I adore you and you guys. But now all my listeners do as well. And so you’ve just increased…
Chani: Oh, thank you.
Dr. Fox: …your fanbase by millions and millions of listeners across the globe now know your story and appreciate what you’re doing.
Chani: Millions, huh, Naty? You’re that popular.
Dr. Fox: Well, we’re getting there. We’re getting there. No, it’s really amazing. And thank you for it. And thank you for telling us your story last week and what you guys are doing this week and what it’s like. And obviously we’re just all wishing you guys, you and your family and everyone over there, just peace and safety and hopefully an end to all the suffering in the very near future, as soon as possible. Thank you, Chani. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.
Chani: Thank you so much, Naty. And I do have to add, before we go, I love listening to your podcast as a midwife. As I said, everything’s in Hebrew. So, sometimes it’s nice to listen to your podcast and be like, “Oh, now I get it, now that I can hear it explained in English.” So, I’m not even kidding you. I will sometimes just scroll through your old podcasts and say like, “Oh, a credo or oh,” whatever. A little exaggeration. I know what a credo is but… It’s the same thing in Hebrew, but it’s very helpful. And you’re a great interviewer, and the people you have on are fascinating. And your birth stories are always so emotional and so powerful. And I really look forward to every Monday when you drop the podcast. So, thank you for doing what you do and for making clear so much of what is such a complicated time for women. It can be complicated. So many questions, and you’ve got so many answers. And you’re fun to listen to. So, thank you, Naty. Really glad I got into the podcast.
Dr. Fox: We should have started with that. Who’s still listening? No, for this one, they’re still listening. You’re captivating. No one shut this off in the middle, I’m certain of it.
Chani: Oh, thank you. Thank you very much, Naty. I appreciate that.
Dr. Fox: Thank you for listening to the “Healthful Woman” podcast. To learn more about our podcast, please visit our website at www.healthfulwoman.com. If you have any questions about this podcast or any other topic you would like us to address, please feel free to email us at hw@healthfulwoman.com. Have a great day.
The information discussed in “Healthful Woman” is intended for educational uses only. It does not replace medical care from your physician. “Healthful Woman” is meant to expand your knowledge of women’s health and does not replace ongoing care from your regular physician or gynecologist. We encourage you to speak with your doctor about specific diagnoses and treatment options for an effective treatment plan.
