“We are not alone: Penny’s Story” – with Penny Khezrie

Dr. Fox: Welcome to today’s episode of “Healthful Woman,” a podcast designed to explore topics in women’s health at all stages of life. I’m your host, Dr. Nathan Fox, an OBGYN and maternal fetal medicine specialist practicing in New York City. At “Healthful Woman,” I speak with leaders in the field to help you learn more about women’s health, pregnancy, and wellness.

Hey, Penny, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

Penny: Hi, Dr. Fox. Thank you for having me. I’m doing very well.

Dr. Fox: Super. I’m really happy we’re doing this. And you reached out to me because you wanted to tell your birth story, and we were speaking earlier. You said that you are a little nervous but also excited to tell your birth story. And I guess I just want to start with that. Why? Why do you want to tell your birth story and that you reached out?

Penny: I think that, first of all, your practice helped me so much in this pregnancy. You guys made me feel comfortable and really took such good care of me.

Dr. Fox: Thank you.

Penny: Thank you. And throughout this whole pregnancy, I stumbled upon your podcast, and it really did help me hear other stories of women going through the same things that I went through. And it really helped me feel not alone. And I wanted to just do the same thing and try to help other women.

Dr. Fox: Terrific. What a great reason. I appreciate you reaching out. I’m glad we’re able to find the time and I’m glad we’re doing this. So, I guess let’s start with… In terms of your story, let’s go way back when years ago to before you had any kids. Take me back to sort of where you were, where you’re living, who you’re married to, where you are in life as you’re beginning your journey, and we’ll go through your pregnancies, I guess one at a time chronologically.

Penny: Okay, so I grew up in Brooklyn, like the Midwood area. And I got married pretty young. I got married at 18, which is pretty common, like from my community, all Sephardic Jewish community. I don’t know, I always wanted to start a family at a young age. I always wanted to be a mom, you know, like the fear of always thinking, “Can I be a mom? Will I be a mom?” It was always something I thought of like my whole life. And thank God I got pregnant with my first daughter very quickly. So, by 19, I was pregnant. And it was a pretty normal pregnancy. But then during the birth, it was like pretty an emergency birth a little bit because she had meconium, and I was only 2 centimeters. So, we had to like, get her out very quickly. I was on Pitocin, like tons of Pitocin, epidural. They broke… My water broke. And I remember after the birth, I was bleeding a lot, and they had to give me the shots in the legs. It was a very traumatic experience being 19, and I didn’t know what was flying. It was a very rushed birth. And it was pretty hard, a pretty hard recovery.

Dr. Fox: Who was with you for the birth?

Penny: My mother and my husband.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, I was going to ask you because, you know, as you said, you were young. I assume your husband was young as well at the time.

Penny: Yes.

Dr. Fox: Did you always think that your mom would be with you for your first birth?

Penny: Yes, I did.

Dr. Fox: And how’d that work out? See, there’s different dynamics of our family. That worked out good?

Penny: It’s funny. It’s like always I want my mom and my husband with me, but they both care so much about me, it’s funny. So, you’re kind of dealing with three different emotions in the room at all times, like my emotions, his emotions, my mother’s emotions, you know? But all my births, thank God, those have been the people in the room with me and we’re a good team. So, I’m very lucky to have them both with me. Yeah.

Dr. Fox: And then did you at the time… You know, you said the birth was hard, the recovery was hard. At the time, did you think that that was unusual or you thought that it was just sort of pretty typical for first birth or what other people were telling you? Meaning how did you sort of gauge yourself against what you expected a first birth to be like?

Penny: That’s a very good question. I think that after my first birth, I remember just thinking, “How does everybody do this? And this doesn’t feel so good.” I remember I didn’t feel strong. I lost a lot of blood in the birth, so I ended up getting very dizzy after. I got very skinny. I feel like I never gained my strength back, like all the blood that I lost. I feel like I never got it back, like that youthful blood. I don’t know, maybe that sounds weird, but I really did not feel good after. And I did a lot of research, and I felt like the Pitocin maybe led to some postpartum depression. And it was a very hard birth and a very hard postpartum.

Dr. Fox: Did it impact on your timing of getting pregnant again? Meaning did you say, “I need to wait longer,” or were you just sort of like, “I’m doing this again”? How did it affect that?

Penny: So, I didn’t even wait that long, but by the time my daughter was 1, I was already pregnant again. And I just know that I wanted other things. I actually really, really wanted to do a natural home birth and then I ended up not doing that. But I had just an idea. I always wanted this natural, beautiful birth that I felt like I could do. I never had like… I don’t know. I didn’t have maybe, like, the right… I don’t know. I don’t know. I wasn’t able to do the home birth because we just felt like it was probably dangerous, which it probably would have been for me now learning all my health issues. But I did feel like birth could be more and birth didn’t have to be like stripped away from me, like that process that maybe at 19 I was too young to grab with my own hands. I just had to follow all the orders. And maybe it was an emergency situation. So, it’s a little hard to say. I do trust the doctors, but I wanted something more for myself. And, yeah, I did want to have that with my second, but I don’t know. It was still… I had to get the epidural. Oh, something I forgot to add. I had that epidural headache with my first. That’s why it was so hard because I got it.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, that is the spinal. That doesn’t make it right. But you did, if I recall, switch doctors from the first birth to the second. Was that because you were looking for something different or was that just circumstance?

Penny: I was looking for something different.

Dr. Fox: So, when you look back on your first birth, I guess then when you were looking back on your first birth, you felt that maybe it was just related not just only to the circumstance but maybe the doctor could have handled it a little bit differently.

Penny: Right.

Dr. Fox: Okay. Second time around, what was your experience like with number one, having a birth behind you, but number two, with a different set of doctors?

Penny: Okay. I think I went in thinking I don’t want an epidural because I had the spinal headache, which was really, really tough. And I really wanted to have a voice. I really wanted to labor naturally in the hospital and just birth my baby naturally. And I felt like I could do it. It was a very easy pregnancy, so I felt ready. And then, I don’t know, it took a very long time for me to labor, and they wanted to move me along. I ended up doing the epidural and ended up… It was fine. It was a beautiful labor, and I got my beautiful son. I really still wanted to do no epidural, but it wasn’t an option, I guess. And before I went home, they gave me the epidural reverse because I wouldn’t leave the hospital without it.

Dr. Fox: Meaning you got it prophylactically, meaning you didn’t have a spinal headache but they did the treatment just so you wouldn’t get one.

Penny: I felt like I was getting a headache. The headache kicks in kind of like a day later.

Dr. Fox: Yeah.

Penny: So, I felt like I was getting it. And honestly, I was just like, you know what? I really don’t want to come back. It was horrible having to come back and leave my baby. I don’t want to do that again. And they gave it to me and that was very good. So, I just went home and everything was fine.

Dr. Fox: Okay. So, overall, I mean, other than getting the epidural when you didn’t think you would, was the experience a little bit more of what you were looking for?

Penny: Yeah, definitely felt a better bedside manner. I definitely felt more in control. It wasn’t my perfect experience that I wanted, but it was better. And that’s what I want.

Dr. Fox: Okay. So, you have two kids, you have your daughter, you have your son, and then your third pregnancy was the really complicated one. So, tell us about that pregnancy. Tell us what happened.

Penny: Okay, so, again, I got pregnant without even, you know, realizing it. My son is probably also turning 1 again, and I got pregnant. And it was a really beautiful surprise. I was very excited. I was probably the thinnest I ever was when I got pregnant, so I was not looking so healthy. I had two toddlers. I was, you know, running around. I don’t know if that was the perfect time to get pregnant, but it just happened and I was very excited to welcome it. I was feeling great.

And then probably about like, I think, 12 weeks in, I started bleeding. I didn’t know why. I never really bled in the beginning of a pregnancy. I never had a miscarriage or anything like that. And I went in to the doctor right away and they did a sonogram. I heard the baby’s heartbeat and they said, “This can go either two ways: you can have a miscarriage today or you can continue this pregnancy. We don’t know. We see that you have a little hematoma, like a blood clot, and it could go either way. So, you just have to wait.”

And that’s what I did. I waited, and I was very nervous, obviously. I never experienced anything like this. I just was like, “Okay, I guess I’ll try not to think about it and wait and see.” The bleeding lessened, and I went in probably a week later, and the hematoma was still there. The baby’s heartbeat was still very strong. And we just said, “Okay, I guess this pregnancy is continuing. Great, we’ll just monitor it.”

And we kept going into the doctor very frequently, and the hematoma kept getting bigger and bigger. And then the bleeding started. I just basically had a heavy period the entire pregnancy. It was crazy. I was bleeding so much. I was bleeding through pads. I was waking up in the middle of the night with blood on my pajamas, on my sheets. Every time this would happen, the next morning I would rush to the doctor. We would see strong heartbeat, strong baby, everything’s growing properly. And we had this huge hematoma that ended up really taking over my belly, taking over this pregnancy. It wasn’t even about the baby anymore. It was about the pregnancy. And we were just shrugging off like, “Oh, baby’s fine, baby’s fine.” And the whole time I’m just like, “How is this baby fine? This is crazy.” And I think we were just like… I don’t know, you could tell me you’re a doctor, you know, but was there anything we could have done during this time of bleeding?

Dr. Fox: I mean, the short answer is no. For chronic bleeding in pregnancy and hematomas, there’s no good… I mean, people try this and that, but people try bed rest, people try progesterone, but none of it seems to be that effective. And sadly, it’s usually either it continues and things go downhill, or it stops and things go in the good direction. And what causes one person to have it continue and most other people for it to just stop and go away, we don’t have a good insight into that, unfortunately. It’s a real tough situation for you, obviously. I mean, horrible situation. But for the doctors too, there’s not that much to offer that’s helpful. I wish we had more, but it just doesn’t seem to be anything… You can’t go in and remove the hematoma. That doesn’t help. And you can’t go in and heal the placenta that has sort of sheared off the uterus. It’s just sort of watch and wait and hope. And it’s pretty old-school in that sense. We really don’t have much.

Penny: I think that’s why it was so hard because the whole time I was like, “Can we just do a surgery and get rid of this?” And my baby was perfect and strong and, through all of this, thriving. It was doing very well the whole pregnancy. It’s just like… And I think that’s what was so hard for me was like my body was doing something kind of like to destroy this pregnancy. I felt very guilty. I felt very responsible.

Dr. Fox: Yeah.

Penny: And I felt like it wasn’t the baby’s fault. I felt like it was my fault.

Dr. Fox: It was neither of your fault. It was the placenta’s fault.

Penny: I had no answers.

Dr. Fox: It’s not you, it’s not the baby if the placenta separates from the uterus, even a little bit, right? You’re going to have bleeding and bleeding and bleeding until that sort of heals. If enough of the placenta is still attached, then the baby will continue to grow and have a good heartbeat and develop and all those things. But as long as that little portion of the placenta is peeled off the uterus, you’re going to keep bleeding until it heals. And usually it does. And unfortunately, sometimes it doesn’t. But, yeah, you couldn’t cause this if you tried, pretty much. It’s certainly not the fault of the mother, that’s for sure. So, ultimately, you got admitted to the hospital for it even, right?

Penny: Yeah. So, then as we keep going, I become severely anemic from now all the blood loss. So, now there’s another issue that I’m not functioning properly. First of all, I’m in so much pain because this blood, it ends up being so much blood in your stomach. It’s very, very painful.

Dr. Fox: Yeah.

Penny: You know, I’m feeling the inflammation. I’m feeling all these pains. It was really not a good time. I was complaining all the time and very scared all the time and just thinking like, “This is not normal. And what’s going on?” And also not really believing that I’m going to have this baby but, you know, then I’m four months, five months out. Maybe I am having this baby. Am I? Like, wait, I didn’t get to fully accept it. But then once I started to physically see my stomach… You know, once I started to accept it, I felt like everything went downhill.

We got my oxygen levels tested, I think that’s what it is when we also tested my blood, like my blood count. And everything was so low. I remember the hematologist was like, “I don’t even know how you’re breathing right now. I don’t even know how you’re walking around. You need to be in the hospital right now. I’m calling an ambulance.” And me and my mom were shocked. You know, my doctor just said, “Yeah, you should go to the hematologist. You know, this is getting a little crazy. Let’s bring a hematologist in.” And the hematologist was like, “This is beyond my capability. We need to get you in the hospital.”

So, that was a bit of a shock to us. We go to the hospital. And I was there for about 8 or 10 days. And my body finally went into a natural labor. I think I started having a placental abruption in the hospital, which I was really very thankful for the way it all played out because I think if I was having a placental abruption in my house, I would have just thought it was another night of bleeding and it obviously wasn’t.

Dr. Fox: Well, you were having a placental abruption in your house. All that bleeding. When we change the phrase from a hematoma to an abruption is just how severe it gets. But it’s the same process, you know? And so even though you were bleeding so much, it was still kind of lighter for several weeks until it got much worse. And that’s when they switch and call it an abruption. But it’s the same process. So, you’re in the hospital, and they’re giving you blood and watching you, and it progressed when you were in the hospital to the point that you were actually in labor, yes?

Penny: Right. Yeah, I got blood transfusions. I got iron infusions. And then we were doing like, you know, those very intense sonograms in the hospital. And I remember the stenographer was like, “I feel like I’m watching the placenta,” I don’t know, “abrupt right now.”

Dr. Fox: Yeah, separating.

Penny: As we were doing the sonogram, I went into labor and I, on my own, started dilating. And I think that once I really saw the sonogram, what was happening, I accepted it. I think then I was just like, “Okay,” to my body, like, “Let’s do this.” They were kind of scaring me, the doctors kind of like, “It’s also at a point right now that you need to kind of save your life also.” I was losing so much blood. And the birth could have gone so many different ways. I could have had to get a C-section. I could have hemorrhaged. It was very complicated and scary.

Dr. Fox: Yes, I was going to ask you if prior to that, if anyone was encouraging you to terminate the pregnancy because of the risk to you. Was that something that they were talking to you about or trying to convince you to do beforehand?

Penny: They definitely did mention it to me in my answer was just no.

Dr. Fox: Yeah. No, I understand. I’m just saying, you know, sometimes that conversation is had if we’re worried about the health of the mother, right? Even if it’s a wanted pregnancy, we’re like, “Listen, this is headed in a direction that’s only bad.” But it’s also tough because you’re getting close to the point where the baby could survive. I mean, you were sort of just at the brink when you… I mean, how far pregnant were you when you ultimately went into labor and delivered?

Penny: I was 23 weeks and a few days.

Dr. Fox: Yeah. Did you think at that time when you went into labor, was the thought losing the pregnancy or is the thought I’m delivering a very preterm baby that they’re going to try to save or you didn’t know?

Penny: So, I think you’re right about terminating the pregnancy was very hard because, first of all, I didn’t want to do that. But then also, it was like, this baby might survive. We were getting so close to that… I think 26 weeks is where you have to try to save the baby, right? The baby has to go to the NICU.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, I mean, it depends on the circumstances. But, you know, between 23 and 26 weeks, they go from pretty much not surviving to usually surviving. And then that’s a very steep curve at that point. So, what decisions you make are very complex in that in that short time period. But yeah, once you get to 26 weeks, you sort of expect the baby to survive at that point.

Penny: I think that this was probably, you know, the biggest decision of my life that was going to come. Up until now, I didn’t really think I was going to go into preterm labor. Even though you’re in the hospital and you’re bleeding and you’re like, “How are you not thinking that?” You just don’t. You think everything’s going to be okay. And I think that the questions now that the doctors are asking you and it’s all coming very quickly and these very big decisions that you really end up leaving up to just, like, your instinct like my mother’s intuition, my feeling in my heart. And right away, I just felt like… What is it called? I wanted maternal care. What do they call it when they’re focused on the mother more?

Dr. Fox: Yeah, I mean, meaning that they’re not going to be… It’s more comfort care.

Penny: Comfort care, right.

Dr. Fox: Yeah.

Penny: Yeah, I did not feel like, at 23 weeks, I wanted my baby under tubes. And I just didn’t feel like that was the right thing. Of course, I listened to the doctor’s opinion. I listened to the percentages, and I listened to also the percentages with the amount of blood that I lost, like how much blood was actually even getting to the baby. How was my blood even flowing? And I decided that the baby would just be left, you know, the way it came out, the best, perfectly. And I didn’t want to touch God’s creature. I felt like the whole thing, the birth, was actually so beautiful. And I was able to push the baby out on my own, and I really like… We got to do it together. And I was able to birth a healthy baby was alive. And I just felt like I didn’t want to… It didn’t feel right to send her to the NICU. It did not feel like the right thing. And I still believe that it was the right thing. Baby passed away just a couple hours later. And it’s tough. It’s very hard, because was it the right decision? Was it not? Of course, I still think to this day, was it the right decision? But I truly believe that it was.

Dr. Fox: Yeah. How do you even process that? I mean, what do you do to process that? Is it just through talking to family? Do you lean on others? I mean, because that’s so… I mean, it’s so horrible to go through, obviously, in the moment, but also for the rest of your life, you reflect back on that. So, what is it that you found that is helpful in terms of trying to process that, you know, really, really sad birth and decisions?

Penny: I don’t know. I look to God and think about the way that… First of all, He saved me through the birth. I listened to so many stories of mothers birthing a preterm baby and then they’re losing so much blood and they don’t make it out alive. I felt very thankful that I was okay, that my uterus was okay. We really didn’t know what was going to happen. I felt very thankful that I was able to birth the whole baby, birth the blood clot that came out right after, that was bigger than the baby. The blood clot was just… It was crazy how big it was, and I was so thankful that it came out together and intact. And then the placenta right after. I felt like I was just God’s messenger, honestly, doing something that I will never understand why this had to happen. I will never understand why the baby didn’t get to live longer, why the pregnancy just couldn’t be perfect. I’ll really never know, but this is just part of my story now. And I think the hardest part is definitely the grief after. Especially in Jewish law, we don’t sit when the baby’s preterm. We don’t do anything. And I think that was the hardest part by far is that we didn’t really have… You don’t have this public grieving period. I don’t know. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that before, that was very hard for mothers.

Dr. Fox: Yes, absolutely.

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Fox: No, because they feel like they’ve been sort of…

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Fox: Not only did they have this horrible loss and they were sort of robbed of their baby, they’re also robbed of that process that can help people get comforted and go through it. And you’re sort of left, you know, like what? Like nothing happened? You know, it’s a very tough thing. And yes, a lot of women, a lot of couples struggle through the same thing if they have a loss in that way, that it’s sort of… They feel like it’s not validated by others, and that’s really, really… That’s really tough. How did your family and friends sort of approach you afterwards?

Penny: So, I remember that. Yeah, it was definitely tough, and I was definitely very judgmental towards people who couldn’t approach me the right way. It was very hard. I remember people who wouldn’t say I’m sorry the first time they came to see me. Maybe they would just talk about something random or just be with me. Like, what are you making for dinner? And asking me all these regular questions. I would get very, very upset. I felt very bad. I needed, “I’m so sorry for your loss.” That’s what I needed. And I think now I’ll know that for other people, you know, for the rest of my life. But I think I learned after that other people really just don’t know the right thing to say. And why would they? You know, it’s a very hard, difficult situation. But I needed to be treated like something real happened because it really did. And I needed that to be known in my family, no matter how awkward it is. I needed people to just say that they were sorry for what happened. That’s just the way I coped. And I realized that about myself. And then, once I realized what I needed, then I was able to accept others better. But until I realized the words I needed, it was hard. It was hard not to get upset at people who said the wrong thing.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, I think everything you said is 100% true. I think people, even very well-meaning people who love you and care about you, don’t know. They’re not trained for this, right? So, they don’t really know how to approach you and how to address it. And, you know, different people handle that differently. Some people avoid, and some people show up and say the wrong thing or say awkward things, and some people get it right. And I think that it is a great lesson that you’re giving all of us, that if you don’t know what to do, just say, “I’m sorry for your loss,” whatever it is, you know? No one’s going to get upset by you saying, “I’m sorry for your loss.” It just shows that you care.

And it is a lesson, sort of, on how to approach people who have had losses and whatever the loss is. If you show that you’re sorry for it, you know, and you feel for them, that’s generally what they’re looking for is that comfort, because you’re not going to fix their problem, right? You’re not going to take away the loss, obviously. They’re going to be sad after you visit as well but just to show that you care. How did you ultimately recover from that? I mean, to get pregnant again. I mean, I guess you never really recover, obviously, but how did you decide, “I’m going to do this again?” Because you did, because we’re going to talk about your next pregnancy.

Penny: Yeah, I think that was definitely very hard. I remember I was so happy to just not be pregnant for a minute. Of course, once my body got back to normal, it was very hard to kind of not have a scar on myself. I kind of almost wish… This is going to sound so weird, but I kind of wish that maybe I had a C-section or something like that, to just have this scar physically. It felt weird months later to just have my regular body again, and it looked like nothing ever happened, just to me. And I remember feeling a little weird. You kind of have to remind yourself what your body went through. You forget. You really can forget when you’re so busy with the kids. And of course, after the birth, the milk comes in, and you’re dealing with all of these things. I remember when my milk came in, I was just so ready for someone to hand me my baby. And then that never happened. Like, it was just… You know, like when you’re at home. And of course, those periods were hard, but those periods were like the real time of healing after.

I think months later, when everything looks okay and everything starts to feel okay is when the grief really hits. So, that was basically last summer. I remember that summer, both of my kids were in camp the full day. I expected to have my baby, you know, that I was hanging out with the whole summer, and I just didn’t. I was left feeling very alone. My friends all had their babies, and everyone’s busy. I was just like, “What is my life now? Who am I…? What am I even supposed to do?” I wasn’t working. I wasn’t really doing anything. I remember I just looked to nature and the beach. I would go to the beach every day, and I would just look at the ocean. I would walk on the beach, I would paint on the beach, draw on the beach, crochet on the beach, like anything I can do to just not feel so in my own thoughts I was doing. And also, looking at God’s beautiful creations really did help me see the beauty in life. That was something I had to keep reminding myself: the world is beautiful. It is a special place. And yeah, I don’t even know.

Dr. Fox: Wow. Tell me what happened for your next pregnancy. What was that like in terms of, you know, you had two relatively, uneventful pregnancies, at least, and then you have this complete disaster pregnancy and now you’re pregnant again. Were you of the mindset of, “Hey, last one was a fluke. I’m going to be fine,” or, “This is going to be a disaster and I’m waiting for it to happen,” or where in between those two did you fall?

Penny: So, I definitely did a lot of research before I became pregnant. I wanted to know a lot about my own body and why this happened. I got some answers but not many. I did see through my blood that I have a little bit of a clotting disorder and then a little bit of a bleeding disorder. So, we kind of saw a few things in my blood, but there wasn’t really much we could do. I did find your practice, and I knew right away I wanted to switch over to. I had my first Zoom call with Dr. Rebarber.

Dr. Fox: He’s pretty good, isn’t he?

Penny: That call was the best Zoom call I ever had. He made me feel so safe, like the minute he said hello. And I knew right away that I wanted to be switched to your practice. And he really just explained everything that happened to me so simply. When I thought it was so complicated, he really just helped me put it into perspective. Also, how rare it is, what happened. And he definitely gave me the confidence to get pregnant again, and that we could do this, and that hopefully everything would be okay. That’s basically what I did. Got pregnant. We had a hematologist kind of the whole first trimester that I was seeing in between going to see you guys at the practice, and that definitely also helped. And of course, baby aspirin is a lifesaver.

Dr. Fox: Were you getting any formal therapy at the time or was it just your visits with us and talking through things?

Penny: So, I definitely… You know, of course, Fortune Faham.

Dr. Fox: Oh, my God, do I know her. Yeah.

Penny: Yes. She helped me so much. Really, I owe everything to her. She really, really helped me. And she definitely also pushed me to get pregnant again. And for regular therapy, I actually didn’t do up until I was kind of at my fifth month in pregnancy. You know, 23 weeks was coming close, and I was like, “You know what? I can’t do this on my own. I need to speak to someone to get me through these couple of weeks, and maybe to speak up until the birth, actually, to try to create this beautiful birth again that I always wanted to have and I never felt like I had.” And that’s where I stumbled upon Gabrielle that you also interviewed. So, that was something that I really got from your podcast is that I found my therapist.

Dr. Fox: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Penny: Yeah. Yea, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Fox: Oh, my God. All right.

Penny: I listened to it and her episode really helped me.

Dr. Fox: Wow. That’s awesome.

Penny: I know.

Dr. Fox: That’s awesome. I mean, you’re dropping all my faves, Dr. Rebarber, Fortune, Gabrielle. Oh, my God. Amazing.

Penny: Well, you know what? I had to create this helping family for myself.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, you needed a team.

Penny: I needed support, and I created it on my own.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, and you needed…

Penny: You know, I really needed help.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, and you need a team of people who understand what you’re going through in that pregnancy, the fact that, yeah, you’re coming up on 23 weeks, that’s real PTSD. You’re going to have a lot of trauma from that, you know, thinking back on your last pregnancy. How could you not, right? And so, you need people who sort of get that. And obviously, you did get past it, right? Because we’re here and everything’s good, and we’ll talk about that. But was there a point in that pregnancy, the last one, where you sort of felt, “Okay, this is going to be a normal pregnancy and not like my last one,” right? Was there a certain gestational age where you hit like, “All right, if nothing’s happened till this point, I feel pretty good,” or was it not until you were holding this baby?

Penny: I mean, I want to say 28 weeks, definitely. I took a deep breath. The baby, you know, hopefully will survive. But up until I held my baby, I never was so relieved. I couldn’t even believe that I was able to have my baby. I didn’t think I would get to just enjoy what we’re meant to have. I just didn’t think it was going to be possible. I really protected myself the entire pregnancy. It was very hard to even watch the sonograms every time. I couldn’t even look. You want to protect yourself. And without you even realizing, you’re protecting yourself.

Dr. Fox: Yeah, nature. I mean, you’re… Tell us about that birth.

Penny: Okay, so I really wanted to feel everything. I felt so many emotions over that past year. I felt so much physical pain. And I was just like, if I’m going to feel pain, let it be for something beautiful. Let it be for something that could be mine. Let me just do this. That’s why I really did not want to get an epidural. I wanted to feel these labor pains. I wanted to push through them. I felt like I had the power and all of the strength. And I really did. And I was so thankful to get to have that opportunity, first of all, from the doctors that really were patient with me through my 14-hour labor in the hospital. Nobody pushed me to get Pitocin. Nobody rushed me. Everybody was really patient with me and supported me. That’s something I never had in my past births, a real team that understood why I needed to do this. And that really means so much to me, still to this day. I can’t believe I even got to do that. And that was really very special.

Dr. Fox: Who delivered you?

Penny: Dr. Mouser.

Dr. Fox: Oh, wonderful.

Penny: Yeah. So, she was incredible really. I just remember pushing out my beautiful baby girl, Erika, and feeling it all and then hearing her cry. It was just really the most amazing experience. And the whole time I was just saying, I can’t believe it. I can’t believe it. Like, I cannot believe this is real, that I got to do this. And it just felt like such a gift. When you experience such hard times, the normalcy of birth and pregnancy that people think, it’s just not normal to you anymore and it’s really not a given. I just felt so lucky.

Dr. Fox: Listen, every time it works out, it’s a miracle. It really is. I mean, it’s 100% true. I want to go back to something you just said before because I’ve been doing, you know… I’ve been in this business for a while, and I’ve been podcasting for five years and talked to a lot of people about their birth stories. And you said something that I’ve never heard before, but it’s so powerful, this idea that you wanted to feel everything in labor because all the pain you’ve been through, you wanted this pain to be for something good, meaning it’s almost like a way to combat the pain you had before that was just pain for pain’s sake, you know, for horrible things, that you wanted to sort of flip it and say, I’m going to have this pain of labor but for a beautiful thing. I’ve never heard anyone express that. I’m sure others have thought of it. I’m not saying no one else has thought of it, but I’ve never heard anyone express it like that. And that is so powerful. I really never heard that. That’s awesome.

Penny: Thank you. I think our bodies are so strong and I owed it to myself. If I could do those blood transfusions and all these crazy things and even the huge blood transfusion with that huge needle before that birth, you know, with the baby I lost the year before and all that pain, we could do this. And I did. And really, I was not alone because God and my body and it’s just amazing. It’s a miracle.

Dr. Fox: Wow. Wow.

Penny: It really is. And of course, the doctor, of course, Dr. Mouser was really so special.

Dr. Fox: Wow. Amazing. How are you doing now, Penny? Looking back on all this.

Penny: Thank you. Of course, it’s weird. You have your beautiful baby now, and I’m so thankful. And she’s the best. But you never lose that little piece of grief. You’ll never forget about the other baby. This doesn’t replace my other baby, it’s just part of my story. I don’t know why I had to go through that, but it’ll never go away. I’ll think about, like, she could have been one year old and how different everything would have been. But it just wasn’t like that. And I’m not alone. I think that’s the most important thing that I remind myself is how many women have gone through this. I’ve learned that over the past few months. This is just the process, I guess, for some people.

Dr. Fox: Wow. Hey, thank you so much for volunteering to tell your story. You are correct, this is really helpful to a lot of people. It’s an amazing story just to listen to, obviously, and to hear your strength, your faith, your insight into what happened. But obviously, for people who either have gone through this, or are going through this, or know someone who’s been through this, it is really, really helpful. I do appreciate it. I know my listeners appreciate it.

Penny: Thank you. Thank you so much. It was very such a nice opportunity to get to speak about what happened. Thank you.

Dr. Fox: Thank you for listening to the “Healthful Woman” podcast. To learn more about our podcast, please visit our website at www.healthfulwoman.com. If you have any questions about this podcast or any other topic you would like us to address, please feel free to email us at hw@healthfulwoman.com. Have a great day.

The information discussed in “Healthful Woman” is intended for educational uses only. It does not replace medical care from your physician. “Healthful Woman” is meant to expand your knowledge of women’s health and does not replace ongoing care from your regular physician or gynecologist. We encourage you to speak with your doctor about specific diagnoses and treatment options for an effective treatment plan.