Dr. Fox: Welcome to today’s episode of “Healthful Woman,” a podcast designed to explore topics in women’s health at all stages of life. I am your host, Dr. Nathan Fox, an OBGYN and maternal fetal medicine specialist practicing in New York City. At “Healthful Woman,” I speak with leaders in the field to help you learn more about women’s health, pregnancy, and wellness.
Dr. Tracy Scheller, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for coming in person to New York City from Englewood, New Jersey, which is my commute every day. It’s really nice to see you.
Dr. Scheller: Wow. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited.
Dr. Fox: Terrific. So, I guess we should start with who are you, Dr. Tracy Scheller? Right? So, that’s a very open-ended question. Answer it any way you want, and then I will follow up with what I want to know on details.
Dr. Scheller: Sure. So, I am an OBGYN. And I practiced obstetrics for at least 12 years, and then stopped the OB part of my life, and started a GYN-only practice. And then got a master’s in nutrition, and started to incorporate nutrition into my GYN-only practice, and women’s health and wellness. The hospital, Englewood Hospital, which we’re both affiliated with, asked me to come on board to be part of their integrative medicine center. And that prompted me to do a fellowship in integrative medicine. So, really learning the science behind a lot of these natural modalities like acupuncture, nutrition, exercise, stress management. And I now see patients for integrative medicine consultations to help them with some lifestyle changes or whatever it is that they’re working on with their overall health, as well as see my GYN patients that I’ve been seeing for over 25 years.
Dr. Fox: Amazing. Well, I have so many questions. This is awesome. I got to unpack all that. So, I’m going to…I guess I’m going to start at the beginning. If you recall, how did you come to the decision to come…to go into medicine in general, just to be a doctor versus you were telling me that your kids are not going to go into medicine. So, why are you not working at Goldman Sachs right now?
Dr. Scheller: Wow. Seriously. I ask myself that question. But I have always wanted to be a doctor. I mean, I remember being in fourth grade and reading things about career day and just feeling like I want to be a doctor because I love talking to people. I want to help people. I wanted to have a profession that I thought was respected and honored, and something more than just a career, but really about who I was. And I know my strengths, which I think are talking to people and finding connection. And that’s what made me go into medicine.
Dr. Fox: That’s terrific. Were there any other doctors in your family?
Dr. Scheller: No.
Dr. Fox: So, you were, like…
Dr. Scheller: No. That’s it.
Dr. Scheller: You’re, like, the pioneer.
Dr. Scheller: Yes. No grandparents, not my parents. I do have a family of chemical engineers.
Dr. Fox: Really?
Dr. Scheller: Yes. So, my brother, my sister, my dad, all chemical engineers and…
Dr. Fox: That’s an interesting family business. I don’t know. Unless you guys, like, own Abbott or something like that.
Dr. Scheller: No, no, no. ExxonMobil all the way. Yeah. It was something that then influenced me to get my major in chemistry instead of biology. So, I minored in biology. So, the thought process was, hey, if you don’t get into medical school, at least you have a chemistry degree to fall back on, which interestingly enough, I did not get into medical school first round, which was devastating since it was all I’ve ever wanted to do since fourth grade. And so, now, I had to pivot. And what I did was I got a master’s degree in business administration.
Dr. Fox: Interesting.
Dr. Scheller: I know. So, my plan was if I can’t be a doctor, then I am going to do something not even in the medical field. But my goal was still to get into medical school. So, my parents were like, listen, stay in school, you know, retake the MCAT, which was my weakest link, and reapply. That’s all you can do. So, that’s what I did. I had so much fun doing my MBA because it was completely different. And I got to travel to Europe. I met some really fun people. And that’s really how I met my husband. So, my husband who’s Australian, he was backpacking through Europe, and I was backpacking. And we met in this little island in Greece called Ios. You know, I remind my kids all the time, like, your plan may be what your plan is, but maybe there’s a bigger plan out there for you that you just have to really adjust. And then realize if I had gotten into medical school when I wanted to, I wouldn’t have met the love of my life.
Dr. Fox: Wow. We’ve gotten deep real early. I love this. Listen, getting into medical school is a bear. It is crazy how hard it is to get to medical school. And I tell people all the time who are in medicine, now in medicine, trying to get to medicine, literally, your whole life of medicine, the hardest part of all of it is getting accepted to medical school. Because once that happens… Everyone in medical school is bright. Everyone works hard. Like, you know, there aren’t a lot of, like, slackers, you know, who go to medical school. And everything usually just falls into place one way or another. Everyone gets a residence, you know, basically, and you get a job and all these things, but it’s getting to medical school is really, really…
That’s great that, A, you didn’t and met the love of your life. B, you did and went into medicine. And when you went into medicine and you went to [inaudible 00:05:28] I assume you were very excited because you got in and you went, did you have any clue at the time that you were leaning towards women’s health, or was there any, like, budding integrative medicine inside of you at the time? Or does this all, you know…were there seeds of this, of who you are now back then?
Dr. Scheller: I have to tell you, I was just so grateful and I still am. Sometimes I just pinch myself, but I am just so grateful that I was able to do something that I am really passionate about and love doing. And I think, one, I didn’t know anything about integrative medicine at the time. It was 25 years ago. [crosstalk 00:06:02].
Dr. Fox: Didn’t exist, really.
Dr. Scheller: Not so much. And I think what was available, I mean, really even in medical school…I don’t know about you, but we didn’t learn so much about nutrition or overall wellness. So, I think I decided I wanted to do OBGYN once I was, you know, doing my rotations, and being able to deliver babies and do surgery, but then have this longer relationship that I could have with women. And that’s where I really connect, having long-term relationships and having people know that they can trust me, and call me, and I’m there for them. I’m going to put them in the right direction if it’s not something that I know how to handle or fix or things like that.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. It’s interesting because, you know, I agree in medical school, there isn’t a lot of things like nutrition and wellness. And some of that is unfortunate because everyone knows that that’s obviously a part of health. Right? All of these things are under a big umbrella, but I can also, I guess, understand it because when you go to medical school, you know nothing. Right? Literally, you start medical, you know zero. And you know chemistry, which is useless, you know biology, which is useless, you know physics, which is useless. I mean, you know, all these things that you have to do to get into medical school are not helpful. And you spend so much time learning about disease. Right? Like, what is normal? What is disease? How do you fix it? How can you not fix it?
And I guess, there’s always this sort of, like, implied assumption that over all of that is these ideas of wellness, but it’s not directly taught. And if you’re lucky, maybe someone will open your eyes to it and teach you a little bit about it and how to do it. But I feel like it’s… On the one hand, it’s more basic, but on the other hand, it’s almost, like, high level. Right? So, I don’t know if I’m making my point, but I think that I guess I understand, but it’s hard to integrate all of that in medical school when you know nothing at the beginning. I’m not sure. I don’t know what your thoughts are.
Dr. Scheller: Absolutely. I think we have to learn the basics of medical school. I don’t know if that is something that can be taught in those four years. I think it’s something that you will probably learn or hopefully, like you said, come in contact with somebody who has an interest in wellness, and diet, and exercise, and sleep, and stress. I think these last 5 to 10 years, I think the stress component of life and talking about it and removing a stigma on stress and anxiety has been helpful for the integrative world. And people are now open and realizing that that does play a major role in their overall health. And so, they are looking for ways to help reduce stress, and instead of medication, maybe talking about some lifestyle changes.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. So, when you were doing OB and then you did GYN, how did you decide to get a nutrition degree?
Dr. Scheller: Yes. I think that the main reason was I was…and I don’t like to use the word burned out, but I was at a place in my career where I wasn’t happy. And that’s why I needed to stop the obstetrical part of my life. And I think it was a little bit of stress that everything has to go perfectly perfect, perfect. Because, you know, sometimes doctors are a little type A, and we want everything to always go right. And when it doesn’t, because in medicine things don’t always go exactly perfectly right, then it’s something that you hold on to internally as maybe there was something that I didn’t do perfectly perfect.
And so, that was my decision to stop doing obstetrics, but I still loved my women’s wellness, my women’s…my women population. And the decision to go into nutrition was that I was looking for something that was going to get me inspired and happy again, and really interested in learning. Really, I do love to learn. I’ve always loved school. And so, this was a great program at Columbia because it was really geared towards professionals who were already out in the field. And we came together on weekends, and I was with cardiologists, nephrologists, nurses, dieticians. So, people from all over that really inspired me and got me excited about learning again. And that just helped me gain the knowledge that I could then give to my women patients.
Dr. Fox: How long did that take from start to finish?
Dr. Scheller: Yes. So, it’s a two-year program, but then you have to write a thesis. So, that took an extra whole other year, and then you have to defend your thesis. And so, it was a good three-year program.
Dr. Fox: It’s legit.
Dr. Scheller: It was legit.
Dr. Fox: This isn’t a certificate. This is legit.
Dr. Scheller: No, no, it’s a real… Yeah.
Dr. Fox: It’s a degree.
Dr. Scheller: It was a master’s.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. It’s a legit degree.
Dr. Scheller: Yeah. It’s a master’s degree. And, you know, my husband would remind me, he said, listen, if it was so easy, they’d be giving them out to everybody. Like, you have to earn your master’s degree. And for me, it wasn’t as practical of something that I could take to my patients the next day versus this fellowship that I ended up doing in integrative medicine was more practical in terms of clinical medicine.
Dr. Fox: Right. I mean, I guess on the one hand, it’s kind of…it’s tough because you’re now…in addition to working, you’re going to school and you’re doing this, but you’re not up at night delivering babies. So, that’s a plus.
Dr. Scheller: [crosstalk 00:11:33].
Dr. Fox: You trade.
Dr. Scheller: Game changer for me.
Dr. Fox: Change one for the other.
Dr. Scheller: And I was like, I would be happy during regular waking hours to be studying and working out of paper than being up in the middle of the night.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. We doctors tend to be a little nerdy, and enjoy school and stuff like that. People marvel at that idea, you know?
Dr. Scheller: Yeah. But I think also what it is, it’s really the connections then that we make with other people. For me, I think that is the key to our profession and our…actually our overall wellness. It’s these social connections that we continue to make.
Dr. Fox: Wait. It’s not all through TikTok?
Dr. Scheller: No.
Dr. Fox: I thought we’re just switched. I thought we’re done with humans, and we’re all TikTok now. No?
Dr. Scheller: No.
Dr. Fox: All right. Hot take. All right. Human connection still matters. All right.
Dr. Scheller: [crosstalk 00:12:17] get off your phones and connect with other human beings. It just gives you a rush and a shot of dopamine and all that. That’s helpful.
Dr. Fox: Right. But Englewood, you said that Englewood recruited you for this position to run the integrative medicine center before you did the integrative medicine fellowship.
Dr. Scheller: Right.
Dr. Fox: So, that’s forward thinking on their part. I mean, when they called you, were you like, huh?
Dr. Scheller: They called me because I was on their advisory board. So, I was on the board of the Graf Center for Integrative Medicine at Englewood. And then when their medical director stepped down, they asked me to take that position. And I kept saying no, actually, because I was just in a place where I was in my own GYN practice where it was just…it was at the five-year mark. Things were now clicking. And I said, no, I’m just finally on my own, doing my thing. And so, multiple calls. And then Warren Geller, the CEO of the hospital asked to meet with me. And when he said, “Tracy, you are the person for this position,” then, of course, I was, like…got googly eyed. I was like, wow, I guess I must be the right person for this position.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. And he’s a good dude.
Dr. Scheller: He’s so great.
Dr. Fox: He’s got a good smile.
Dr. Scheller: Great. He knows how to connect with people.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. He’s a people person. Yeah. For sure.
Dr. Scheller: When he told me that I said, listen, I just got done doing a master’s in nutrition, and writing this thesis. I said, I can’t do any more studying and going back to school. I said it took a bit out of me. He’s like, no, no, no, no. You don’t have to do any more. You have a master’s in nutrition. It really makes sense, you know, using that background. You’ll be great for this. But the more I gave it some thought, I decided to give it more credibility. I needed a fellowship in integrative medicine, and become board certified in integrative medicine. And I…
Dr. Fox: Yeah. The inner nerd rises up again.
Dr. Scheller: That’s right.
Dr. Fox: Oh, I can go to school again? Maybe I should do that. Wait. So, what does that entail? Let’s talk about it, a fellowship in integrative medicine. Because this is not something that people…I assume, not something that people do straight out of med school instead of a residency, or is it? It’s sort of, like, an addition to what you typically did. Right?
Dr. Scheller: Correct. Now, you can. Because once you graduate medical school, you’re still an MD. Right? You don’t have a fellowship in, like, what we are, OBGYN. So, there were a lot of doctors in this program. So, I went to the University of Arizona, Dr. Andrew Weil’s Center for Integrative Medicine. He is really sort of the grandfather of integrative medicine.
Dr. Fox: Did you have to move?
Dr. Scheller: No, no. So, it was mostly online. We met in Arizona for one week a year, and the rest of the education was online through…
Dr. Fox: Right. So, is this people throughout the country or the international or just…
Dr. Scheller: Yes.
Dr. Fox: Who come together to do this.
Dr. Scheller: International. Yes. So, we were a cohort, and we went through the program over the two years together.
Dr. Fox: Wow.
Dr. Scheller: It was super powerful.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. That’s cool. I’m going to go back to it, but you do this, and then when you’re done to get board certified, is it a written exam, an oral exam, a physical examination? What do you have to get done? What happens?
Dr. Scheller: Yes. It’s a written…
Dr. Fox: Yeah. Written test. Okay.
Dr. Scheller: Now, everything’s on computers, you know, to become…you know, take the board exam.
Dr. Fox: So, what kind of things do they cover in an integrative medicine fellowship?
Dr. Scheller: Yes.
Dr. Fox: Just so our listeners get a sense of, like… What are we talking about here?
Dr. Scheller: Absolutely. The foundation is nutrition.
Dr. Fox: Okay. So, you’re ahead of the game.
Dr. Scheller: Right. I have my master’s in nutrition, but…
Dr. Fox: Right. You’re running circles around those other poor…poorly nutrition to doctors.
Dr. Scheller: Exactly.
Dr. Fox: [inaudible 00:15:53] is everyone there an MD? Is everyone a doctor who’s doing this?
Dr. Scheller: No, you did not have to be an MD.
Dr. Fox: So, people can sort of just do it if they want to be, like…
Dr. Scheller: There could be nurses, nurse practitioners, PAs.
Dr. Fox: Got it. But they’re all in medicine.d
Dr. Scheller: Yes.
Dr. Fox: In some capacity. Okay. Got it. Okay. So, it’s not someone who’s, like, out of college and wants to just learn about this.
Dr. Scheller: No, no.
Dr. Fox: Okay. All right. They’re all healthcare providers, as the kids say.
Dr. Scheller: Yes, yes.
Dr. Fox: All right. Fine. So, it’s based on nutrition, and what other types of things?
Dr. Scheller: It’s based on nutrition, especially an anti-inflammatory diet. We’re educating people on how to choose foods that are anti-inflammatory. Of course, exercise, movement, yoga. We also incorporate acupuncture and reiki, meditation classes, aromatherapy, and stress reduction techniques. So…
Dr. Fox: Do you do all these things yourself or just learn about… Meaning, do you learn how to do acupuncture, or you learn the value of it and you would send to someone else?
Dr. Scheller: Right. So, no, I don’t become an acupuncturist. No. I’m not trained in that. That is a very [crosstalk 00:16:56] program. No. So, I just understand the benefits, who to refer for acupuncture, how to explain it to them, and, you know, deciding if someone could be a good candidate for acupuncture for whatever it is that they’re trying to improve upon.
Dr. Fox: And then what is reiki?
Dr. Scheller: Reiki is a energy type of medicine. I like to explain it as, you know, when somebody gets really close to you and you start backing up because you’re like, oh my gosh, you’re in my space, that is an energy that surrounds you. And so, when someone is performing reiki, what they do is they get that energy from around you, and then focus it or center it on an area maybe that’s been causing you pain. Or it could be a more general area that they do around you, like the light touch massage that is then very calming, and it has been shown to reduce cortisol, your stress hormone, which can then help reduce overall inflammation in you as well.
Dr. Fox: I’d heard of that, but didn’t know it was called reiki. There we go. All right. So, when you’re doing this and you’re learning, what is the… I’m just trying to get the breakdown of how much of it is, like, introductory versus, like, the deep science of it versus practical. I assume it’s a mix of all of those, but like what… Just so I get a sense of, like… What does it mean when you’re learning this? Like, you’re learning about reiki. Right? So, let’s say. What do they tell you? What do you learn about it?
Dr. Scheller: Good question. So, we learn about, you know, exactly what we talked about, what it is, and then you actually get to experience it on each other. So, we then…we break into groups. It’s all very practical. And so, we were able to, you know, practice it so that you could feel the warmth of that energy that’s being focused in a certain area. So, that’s basically how all of the things that we learned in integrative medicine during the fellowship were first just as part of just information on what it is, practical information, but then we’re always able to experience it. So, like, with our nutrition, we had some cooking lessons, and we tried different foods or learned about different herbs and spices, and things like that. So, not only learning the basics of it, but then we were able to utilize it and experience it.
Dr. Fox: So, I’m curious. Everyone in this program is, you know, in healthcare. Right? And, obviously, people who are doing this have bought into it. Right? They’re in. Right? Otherwise, they wouldn’t be there. So, presumably, everyone who you’re learning with, and interacting with, and learning from is very positive about all of the integrative medicine that you’re learning. In your other world, when you’re mostly with, you know, idiots like me, doctors and this and that, who are, like, sort of classically trained, were… And you’re discussing this with your colleagues. Are they mostly like, wow, that’s so cool, or they’re like, what the hell are you doing? I’m just trying to get a sense of what your life is like while you’re going through this and interacting with, like, the more traditional, so to speak, you know, medical people.
Dr. Scheller: Exactly. So, integrative medicine, really, it has to be a partnership. So, the people who are studying integrative medicine have to believe in it themselves. And if you don’t, well, as we all know, it all comes across to the person that you’re trying to counsel that is like, if you don’t believe in it, why are you going to think I’m going to believe in it? But when it comes to other physicians, I find that our age group — so, docs who’ve been out 20 plus years — aren’t as receptive because they probably haven’t been as exposed to it. Little set in our ways. And if they don’t really subscribe to wellness and the importance of diet and exercise, well, then maybe they’re…because they don’t feel comfortable with it, then they’re not going to be so interested in learning more about it.
First is I’m finding that some of the younger doctors, who’ve been out maybe 5 to 10 years, are more open to it probably because they’ve been exposed to it in their medical school or during residency, and also because more of their patients are asking about it. So, now, they’re seeing the legitimacy of it, and looking for practitioners who will help their patients understand some of the modalities that can help their patients.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. And I think that’s fair. And I think that…I mean, just in general, those of us who are older, who are more the get off my lawn type of people than the younger ones are, which is in a lot of ways. But I guess I definitely believe what you’re saying. It makes a lot of sense, but it doesn’t quite make…it never made sense to me. So, for me, I’m a similar age group, and I was “traditionally trained” in a medical school. I never heard about any of this stuff. Right? I think that, obviously, diet, exercise, eat well, exercise, we know that. But for me, it’s something like, well, if acupuncture is going to help someone and they are going to feel better, why on earth would I pooh-pooh it? That makes no sense to me. Right? We know it’s not dangerous. Right?
And it’s the same thing like yoga. Right? So, I don’t, you know… For whatever someone has, if they start incorporating yoga and either they sort of objectively get better or they feel like they’re getting better, that’s a win. Right? I never understood what is, I guess, the downside or what is…like, why be negative about it? I mean, unless you think someone’s, like, a hack, they’re just… But we’re not talking about…it’s not like selling something. It’s really just like other modalities, and let’s see if they work, and here’s the reasoning behind it. And I’m going to choose this one for you and this one for you. It just seems like anything else we do in medicine. Right? A lot of stuff we do, it’s not black and white, and clearly helpful or clearly not. It’s always a lot of trial and error, and try different things. And so, I don’t…I’m not quite sure I understand negative attitudes towards it is my point.
Dr. Scheller: I think that there might be some negative attitudes just based on maybe some ignorance of it. So, not really fully understanding it. And I remember when I was doing OB and GYN, before I understood really a lot more about integrative medicine or even acupuncture, that I felt like I was always looking for someone that I could send my patients to, to help them understand better about diet and exercise. Because, really, the visits are quick. We have to…there’s so many things to cover or high-risk OB. There’s a lot of things we have to get into. So, we don’t really have a lot of time getting into the nitty-gritty of their actual diet. Okay?
So, then I was looking for people to send them to, but that was also…I’d give them names and numbers, and they would come back and they never saw anybody. They never made any extra visits. Or we had to…I had to look and find some people who did acupuncture and, again, if things aren’t covered or in network. But I think people who are also open to it, which is a big piece of integrative medicine, you have to actually believe in it yourself in order for it to work.
So, let’s say, someone comes in as talking to me that they have this chronic back pain, or if they have migraines, or maybe they’re having issues with getting pregnant. And so, I offer acupuncture to them, but if right off the bat, they tell me, oh, no, I don’t believe in that, that is not…then that’s where the conversation ends. I’m not talking somebody into it because, as with anything in medicine, like, even if a patient doesn’t trust their doctor and the doctor gives them advice, they’re not going to follow it if they don’t believe in who they’re getting that advice from. So, the same goes for these type of modalities. Someone has to be open to them and then experience it, and then they’ll get a better response from it.
Dr. Fox: Right. Especially if a major component is stress reduction. Right? If going to get acupuncture is going to increase someone’s stress, yeah, don’t do it. But if it’s going to be like, oh, yeah, I’m totally…like, my friend did it and it was great, and this and that, and they come with a positive attitude towards it and then it works for them, that makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Scheller: Exactly.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. Wow. So, that actually, your last answer, like, segue exactly to my next question is… So, who would come and see you? Right? Who would show up and make an appointment to see you other than your…sort of your longstanding traditional gynecology patients who come for their exams and Pap smears and whatever? Fine. Who else comes to see you for the integrated medicine part?
Dr. Scheller: So, right now, I am part of the cancer center at Englewood. And I see a lot of patients who have either been just diagnosed, or going through their cancer journey, or are in a survivorship mode. And so, now, they’re working on, hey, how can I change my diet, my exercise, and my stress, and things like that so that I am living the healthiest life possible, so I don’t get a recurrence, so that I can go through this journey with maybe an open mind, so I’m more receptive to the treatments that I’m going to be receiving? It could be someone like that.
It could be someone who is maybe overweight, who’s starting some GLP-1 medications, who realize that while they’re on some of these medications, they’re also wanting to learn how to change their lifestyle so that maybe they don’t have to be on these medications for the rest of their lives. It could be someone who has any type of chronic condition, pain, migraines, irritable bowel syndrome, really anybody, which is great. Or someone just like you or me that’s like, hey, you know what? I’m just trying to be a little bit more healthful. I realize that I’m not sleeping well, that I am very stressed or anxious, and then talking to them about that. Even, like, helping with supplements. Because, again, in medical school, we don’t learn a lot about herbs and supplements. And it’s a big, big world out there, and it’s hard to navigate when you go on Amazon and there’s so many options. So, I help people navigate that process.
Dr. Fox: How is what you’re doing…and it might not be. But how would you describe the difference between integrative medicine and functional medicine? Because these are, like, buzz terms out there. And I assume there’s some overlap.
Dr. Scheller: Absolutely. So, the way I like to describe it is, the integrative camp is the Dr. Andrew Weil camp. And that’s going to focus more on foundational health being really the diet, diet, diet, diet, exercise, stress reduction, and getting back to basics. Functional medicine, I like to describe as the Mark Hyman camp. And his focus is definitely nutrition, but they also put more emphasis on data such as tests, blood tests…
Dr. Fox: Yeah, blood levels.
Dr. Scheller: …saliva checks, gut testing. And the integrative medicine world does not place as much emphasis on the testing as functional.
Dr. Fox: Is it, like, a rivalry? Is there, like, an annual, like, football game between the two camps or anything like that?
Dr. Scheller: No. They work together. They work together. Yeah. There’s a big integrative healthcare symposium that’s in New York City every February. And, you know, Mark Hyman is there and a lot of, you know, the functional integrative… We’re all part of the same community.
Dr. Fox: I guess that makes sense. So, what would be…? Actually, I want to ask one more question. How much of what you’re doing is also mental health, you know? Because, you know, you’re MD trained in OBGYN, integrated medicine. So, it obviously starts to touch on that, encroaches…all of medicine encroaches on that, obviously, but it’s maybe more indirect. But I would imagine you have a lot more mental health discussions, I would think, than others do.
Dr. Scheller: Yes. I think, when you form a relationship with a patient, they feel like they trust you, and they want to tell you some personal things that are going on in their lives. And because these appointments have a little bit more time, I can really get into some of the things that maybe you just don’t have as much time to talk about during your regular exams with your primary doctor and things like that. So, we get into things that are going on that you then realize, well, this divorce you’re going through, this separation, this event with your child is playing a very, very big role in your overall health. And you’re wondering why you’re having chronic headaches right now. You’re wondering why you’re having stomach pains. You’re wondering why you just feel fatigued and just overall tired all the time.
And so, when we get into that, then I can help people see, hey, we thought about talking about a therapist. Is it somewhere where you need to go? So, I work a lot with therapists, and sometimes therapists send me patients, too, because it’s all part of your overall health. And I actually enjoy listening to people. And I think, when people feel like they’re being heard and they’re validated, that also helps with their healing process.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. I’ve said many times this podcast that the thing I’ve learned the most about since going into practice, right, compared to when I started practice and now is mental health. Right? I don’t know that much more about diabetes than I did 10 or 20 years ago compared to what I know about mental health. And I think that people, including doctors, sometimes believe or teach that there’s this, like, separation. There’s your mental health and there’s your physical health. And if they are interrelated, they call it something like psychosomatic, that, like, well, your knee hurts because you have anxiety. So, this is, like, weird, like what? Like, sort of like that.
And I think that the more time you spend with people, and the more experience you get, and the more sort of just, you know, times around the Earth you get, you realize that it’s, like…it’s one big circle. Right? Meaning, your mental health affects your physical health, and your physical health affects your mental health, which I think anyone listening is like, well, yeah. But it’s amazing that not everyone even buys that. And then, so, things that are going to help… There’s things that are going to help both, either directly or maybe one through the other.
So, example, you take something like, you know… I don’t know. Yoga. Right? I don’t know. I’m just throwing it out there because I know about yoga. I like yoga. I’ve done it, you know, this or that. Clearly, it’s good for you physically. Clearly, it’s good for, like, mental health, all, like, the relaxation and sort of that, you know, idea of, you know, looking at yourself, all these things. And it’s hard to separate out, like, what components of it help your physical, but who cares? Right? Because it’s, like, the overall circle is getting better. And I think that that’s such an important aspect of medicine that the good doctors understand.
And I think that patients sometimes themselves aren’t open to this. Right? They also believe there’s this, like, divide between them. And you’ll tell them, like, well, maybe if, like, we help you with this, like, your stomach won’t hurt anymore. And like, what? Like, maybe. Like, listen. Maybe we’re wrong. You could also have Crohn’s. Right? Like I said, it’s not we’re going to forget all the other stuff, but it’s just so critical to think sort of, you know… I mean, the term is holistic, which is a little kooky, but it’s real. You have to be a little more holistic about these things.
Dr. Scheller: Absolutely. And I remind people that, listen, I’m not a gastroenterologist, I’m not a neurologist, but you’re seeing those doctors. Now, you’re seeing me to put the other pieces together, the habits. And so, let’s say, I did discuss yoga, brought that up. And so, I can’t do yoga. I’ve tried it. That’s not something for me. I said, okay, here’s…let’s make a change. Let’s talk about your mindset. If you then realize that you’re not enjoying yoga because it’s slow, it’s breathing, you don’t feel like you’re active enough, or burning calories, or as effective of an exercise, well, then, no, you’re not going to get anything out of it.
But once you change your mindset and you realize, I’m allowed to be here, doing my breathing, my stretching, that this type of exercise is just another component of all my other exercises. And I find that when I’m more present in the yoga, when I’m actually allowing myself just to be here and not thinking about, oh, my gosh, I have to do laundry. What am I making for dinner? What are the kids doing? And being right there in the moment, wow, what a sense of relaxation and stress reduction that you get that can help you throughout the whole day. And it doesn’t have to be a long amount of time. Studies show that even doing 10 minutes every day… Ten minutes. How much time do we spend scrolling? Ten minutes every day can make a world of difference.
Dr. Fox: Or that can take, like, an advanced hot yoga class, and that’s the best workout you’ll ever get in your life, you know? You’ll sweat, your heart will be pounding. I mean, it’s like…you know, you could do everything with these things. That’s fascinating.
Dr. Scheller: Right. But I think the mindfulness piece is probably one of the biggest things. So, talking about mental health, because when people have stress and anxiety, it’s because we’re thinking about yesterday or tomorrow, and that’s the two places that we have no control over. So, mindfulness is, hey, let me help you understand how about being in the present moment right now. And you teach breathing exercises because you always have your breath with you. I mean, these are simple things.
And talking to some physicians, like, oh, gosh, oh, please. And it’s unfortunate because doing a breath when you’re sort of more stressed really helps you re-center and then you don’t react. You respond to people. I just find it within my own relationships with my own patients every day that I’m like, I’m here with you right now. I’m not thinking about my kid. I’m not thinking about my husband or what else I need to be doing. And if we can practice being in the moment with every part of our day, you are taking off the baggage of all the worries and stressors that you’re carrying around. It’s like carrying around a really heavy backpack. And once you can take that off because you’re like, I’m going to let that go and I’m just going to be right here, wow, how lightening and good you feel. And so, then you don’t have that exhaustion at 3:00, 4:00 because you’ve been carrying around all these things with you all day.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. And that is something you have to intentionally practice because it’s hard. It is hard to focus on the moment and what you’re doing because there’s… Listen. We all have a billion things running around us. And so, it’s not something that it’s just going to come… I guess, maybe for some people, it comes naturally, but I think most people have to, like, focus and practice on, like, how do I do that? And so, yeah, it’s like anything else. You’re working on a muscle.
Dr. Scheller: Exactly. So, in my fellowship, I did a course called Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. It’s an eight-week class originated by Jon Kabat-Zinn, who is the master of mindfulness. And so, those are things that I can introduce to other people, and I can say, you know what? I did it. I needed to learn how to rewire my brain, neuroplasticity, how to stay in the moment, and not worrying about all the things that I have no control over. And there are so many podcasts and experts out right now, who are really trying to educate people. And I say, listen, let’s find you somebody or something that you connect with. Let me help you find that way. What worked for me may not work for you, but I’ve got a lot of resources.
And that’s what I love about integrative medicine, that it may not be just a one thing fixes all or, like, when you see your primary or regular doctor and they give you a prescription for a medication and you’re on your way. No. I would give you some ideas, and then you come back and say, hey, did I try that? Did I connect to that or no? You know, I hated that. I didn’t like that breathing exercise you taught me. Is there something else? And that’s how integrative is great. It’s a trial and error, and a partnership that I have with my patients.
Dr. Fox: For most of your patients or for your patients, would you say the majority see you once or twice and then they’re on their way, or they typically follow up with you on a regular basis for a long time for the integrative part?
Dr. Scheller: For the integrative part, I think I do have some that come and see me every three months because they’re working on lots of different things. And then I see some people that I only needed to see maybe two or three times. And they take the suggestions and they run with it. And they find that, wow, I was able to incorporate those things. They bought into it. They made some changes with diet, the importance of regular sleep, some meditations, you know, all those things. And they’re like, okay, I got it. I’m feeling better. And then other people have taken maybe more time.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. To be practical for a second, what in your experience are the biggest mistakes people are making with their diet? Because you mentioned diet, diet, diet, you know, nutrition background. Like, what are the… Just so our listeners, like… So, what are the things that you’re talking about having, you know, low inflammatory and this thing? So, what are, like, I don’t know, few things that are very practical for people, unless it’s different for every person, and you can’t answer that? I don’t know.
Dr. Scheller: No. I can. I think, the biggest thing is creating a routine with your diet, meaning having a breakfast, having a lunch at a regular time, and having dinner at a regular time. Because what happens is people…oh, I wasn’t really hungry. So, I skipped breakfast. Well, boom, 10:00. Now, I’m snacking on stuff. Okay. Then I didn’t bring a lunch. So, now, I’m running out and getting fast food. And then that disrupted my dinner. It’s just there’s no routine.
So, if there’s one thing that I think with what I suggest to people in all aspects of their life is, hey, can we establish some routine, your sleep routine and your eating routine so that we…that just becomes part of your regular day. And that helps you with your hunger cues and your satiety cues. Right? So, if I’m eating lunch every day around noon, well, around 11:30, 11:45, I feel like I’m getting hungry. I brought my lunch because that’s what I do. I’ve got into some consistency. I have a good lunch that I remind people to incorporate more fiber in their diets, how to increase proteins, what order of food that they should have when they’re sitting down to eat. And I also talk about the importance…when we talk about anti-inflammatory foods, I talk about whole food. So, if you can… I tell this to my 21-year-old all the time. When you’re making a decision on what you’re going to eat…
Dr. Fox: The one listening from Barcelona right now? All right. Got it. Okay.
Dr. Scheller: [crosstalk 00:39:32]. And when she tells me she has a stomachache and talk about what she’s chosen, we go…
Dr. Fox: I’m sure she loves that.
Dr. Scheller: Yes. Oh, yes.
Dr. Fox: Thanks, mom.
Dr. Scheller: But it’s about choosing food that came from the Earth as is. It’s a whole food. Like, if it is processed, if we create it into a chip, a cookie, a cracker, then that’s not going to be as helpful for you as just a food item that just came naturally. So, getting away from these highly processed foods, we call them ultra-processed foods, and they have the high fructose corn syrup, and they have the flour and salt, and so many ingredients that they are creating the inflammation in our bodies.
Dr. Fox: And you mentioned before…we sort of said it tongue in cheek, but I know that you meant it, like, really for integrative medicine. Talk about the importance of relationships and personal connections in overall health and wellness. Because I know that’s a big thing of yours.
Dr. Scheller: Absolutely. So, when we make deeper connections with people, or it could be, hey, I’m meeting my work friends out for happy hour, and we’re just talking about our day and just having some laughs. And that part of those social connections do help with the hormonal balance in our brains, the serotonin, the dopamine, the feel good hormones. And that plays a very big role in anxiety and depression and things like that. So, if people would get off their phones and make eye contact with people, if they would say hello, if they, hey, I see you all the time, what’s your name? Like, wow, that’s a hit of dopamine right there. Hey, wow, you look nice today. But if you’re looking at your phone, you’re not looking up.
So, those are small connections. And then we have those deeper connections with our spouse or our partner or friends, girlfriends, work friends, old friends, all of those times that we connect and we just… Maybe we’re vulnerable. Maybe we’re, like, you know, happy for each other for something. All of those things play a big role in your overall health. And I think, some elderly people are…when they get isolated, they lose out on that social connection. And studies do show that there can be a decline in their overall health, increasing the risk of dementia and things like that.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. It’s so interesting. Like, when we were growing up, this wasn’t even, like, a thing unless someone, again, elderly, sick, they somehow had to be isolated, you know, severe cases of mental health issues. If there’s just people, like, weren’t leaving their house, this or that. But otherwise, there wasn’t…there was nothing to do because you had no other choice. You’re always with people because, you know, what else are you going to do? There was only three channels. Right? There was no internet. There was no phones. You had no choice.
And I think, it’s almost sort of, like, the mindfulness. Now, people really have to consciously choose to interact with humans, which is just bonkers. Right? It’s never been like that in probably the history of people that you had to consciously choose to interact with other humans, but you do. Like, we are wired to interact with humans. That’s how we were built, you know, forever. And it’s just…it’s really important. You know, it’s going to get worse, I think, obviously, with time.
Dr. Scheller: Yeah. I think we can turn it around, though. I think with listening to these type of podcasts and all the information that is out there right now, I think once people do really realize that it’s playing a role in their overall health, that they’re going to get off their phones and they’re going to make those connections with other people. So, we just have to educate people and let them know the importance of doing that. So, I talk to people all the time about doing that. That’s why I wanted to be here with you today. I’m happy to make the check into New York City.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. Yeah. We discussed it. It’s great. I agree. It’s always better to look someone in the eyes when you’re talking to them.
Dr. Scheller: It’s the energy, don’t you think? Like, there’s always an energy when you’re in the same room with somebody.
Dr. Fox: It’s like the reiki.
Dr. Scheller: Yeah.
Dr. Fox: There you go.
Dr. Scheller: There you go.
Dr. Fox: There you go.
Dr. Scheller: Versus now, you know, we do telemedicine appointments. You just can’t feel that energy through a screen.
Dr. Fox: Yeah. It’s tough. So, I want to give you a chance before we finish. Give us a plug for the Graf Center. What are you guys doing over there? Explain it. People may have heard of it, may not have heard of it. Tell everyone about it.
Dr. Scheller: Yes. Yes. So…
Dr. Fox: Plus, I know that because the Englewood people are going to come after me if I don’t. No, I’m kidding. I love the Englewood people. Yeah. It’s all good. Yeah.
Dr. Scheller: The Graf Center for Integrative Medicine is in Englewood Hospital. We’re on the fifth floor of the Berry Building, at our center, which when you walk in, it just feels like a spa. And we offer massage therapy. We do the reiki. We have acupuncture. We have our registered dietitians who see patients in person or via Zoom. We do meditation classes. We have yoga classes. We have aroma therapy. And they can actually schedule in-network appointments with me to talk about their overall health, and maybe help them with supplements and a plan that they will resonate with and can work on to improve their overall health. We are also in-network with our registered dietitians. So, we check people’s benefits to see what their plans allow, as well as with acupuncture, we are in-network. And so, some clients actually have benefits to do acupuncture, and we do it right there in our center.
Dr. Fox: That’s amazing. And how do people find you? They just Google Graf Center and they’ll find you?
Dr. Scheller: Let’s say they’re Googling, yeah, integrative medicine New Jersey, or…you know. We will definitely come up. I think when…a lot of people, when they come to see me, they’re like, I had never even heard of this. Well, that’s why we’re also just…you know, we’re trying to educate other physicians. Right? So, if a patient hears about integrative medicine from their trusted physician and they like, wow, my doctor thinks that this is something that could be valuable to me, then I’m going to pursue it. And it’s all over New York. I mean, it’s all over the country, the integrative medicine world. And sometimes, you know, the practitioners are not accepting insurance, but Englewood Hospital has validated the importance of integrative medicine, and they have made it available to patients as an in-network service.
Dr. Fox: It’s amazing. Wow. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for coming in. This was a terrific conversation. I learned a lot. I’m sure the listeners loved it. And, yeah, it’s just really amazing. I love what you’re doing. Thank you.
Dr. Scheller: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Fox: Thank you for listening to the “Healthful Woman” podcast. To learn more about our podcast, please visit our website at www.healthfulwoman.com. That’s healthfulwoman.com. If you have any questions about this podcast or any other topic you would like us to address, please feel free to email us at hw@healthfulwoman.com. Have a great day.
The information discussed in “Healthful Woman” is intended for educational uses only. It does not replace medical care from your physician. “Healthful Woman” is meant to expand your knowledge of women’s health and does not replace ongoing care from your regular physician or gynecologist. We encourage you to speak with your doctor about specific diagnoses and treatment options for an effective treatment plan.
